To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

Well, the alternative is to stop all intervention/benefits etc and then what?

So a few may get their act together - great. Then, some may turn to charity and the kindness of strangers. Some may starve. Some may turn to crime. The life chances of those kids will be further damaged having already having the misfortine of being born to feckless parents. Only one of those outcomes is a desired one for society.

That's the rub. Do we say that overall having a welfare state/state intervention benefits society more than not, bearing in mind what would happen if the safety net was dismantled altogether (and it's got some pretty massive holes in as it is). Or do we argue that it's not worth the taxes and the perceived piss-taking and those children will be collateral damage in our attempt to force people to take responsibility?

I know which country I would prefer to live in.

Yeah it doesn't work like that. I will continue to vote for parties who would increase taxes to spend on valuable public services.

Yes thanks I'm well aware of that I have severely autistic 14 year old
But I think.you will find that special needs can be an answers as to why some childrena are late to toilet train
I assume you realise that special needs ,is a very broad term and just because your friend managed to toilet train her child it will.take a lot longer for other children ???
And some never will.

Can you read? I clearly phrased my answer with things like “doesn’t always mean” eg it does sometimes mean. It’s not always used as a get out free card - but sometimes it is. Because, as you say, there is a pretty broad spectrum.

But since so many people aren’t contributing, it’s basically just taxing the people who are already contributing even more.

The alternative, which I think would be good, is to actually monitor people’s parenting more, and penalise them financially if they aren’t parenting properly.

unfortunately, some people need incentivising to do a decent job.

Six year olds would be rare but there are definitely middle class parents who can't be arsed toilet training and will happily send their kids to reception in nappies or pushed in buggies. On one occasion one of them had a dummy!

Some mums just expect other people to raise their kids.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12698825/My-daughter-night-nappies-started-going-school-WONT-apologise-no-one-criticise-working-mums-busy-potty-train.html

Exactly! And why did she have so many if she’s too busy for basic child rearing?!

I think we should do as much as possible directly for children. Free school meals, dental and eye check ups in school, and so on. But not handing over wads of cash to feckless parents to ‘look after them’ which gets spent on nails, dogs, takeaways and lip filler.

‘I've used this analogy before, but if you give a child an ice cream, then punish them for enjoying it, that's abusive’

It don’t work though does it, the analogy. A more accurate one would be a group of people in a sweet shop. Some eat no sweets, some eat a bit then go and do something else, maybe put some sweets in their pocket. Some sit in the sweet shop and eat all the free sweets. No body gets punished.

The article you have linked to is not only written by shona sibary,who is notorious for writing controversial articles
But she also seems to have missed the point as she talks about night time nappies which loads of kids use some up till teens and has nothing to do with not being toilet trained during the day and there for has no affect on nursery or school.

Parents need to take responsibility for a lot of this. 🙄

Where are you getting the idea that they’re getting wads of cash from?

And where are you getting the idea that it’s getting spent on nails, dogs, takeaways and lip filler?

I know some schools provide vouchers for families on a very low income but these are vouchers for supermarkets and can’t be spent on anything but food.

There is sometimes a household support fund but this is about £80 and wouldn’t go very fair on lip fillers and dogs etc.

I don’t think you realise the impact poverty has on children’s education.

You are obviously very privileged and you should be grateful but why would you want to stop help being given to the children who need it the most.

Well said. Whatever we may think about feckless parents, it isn’t right that children suffer.

There needs to be some sort of safety net to protect children in need.

Have you lived on a deprived social housing estate? Because I have and sadly a LOT of the money given via benefits is not spent on the intended purchases

Clearly the reports of the imminent demise of the Tory party have been greatly exaggerated. They just need to sell tickets for their next conference to the majority of the participants of this thread and it'll be packed to the rafters.

Could not have put this better myself.

Nor me. It’s a staggeringly simple fact completely ignored on here. And if you raise it you are accused of being very right wing or a Tory stooge

Beg to differ, I missed roughly three years of high school. Deliberately. With friends. No one gave a shit. I think in three years a social worker came round once to ask me why I was missing so much school.
Thst was late 70s early 80s.

I generally agree, but for whatever reason (lack of life skills, bad social circumstances, inability to cope, disadvantaged backgrounds, mental health crisis, or whatever other reason) some aren't.

Whether it's lack of will or ability, it's happening. So what do we do? Nothing? It's not fair on the child, and even if people don't care about that it affects all of society. All of us. Financially and or just the general impact on communities.

'Feral' kids grow up to be adults struggling with social problems and then repeat their childhoods with their own kids. Then we have more social problems affecting our towns, cities, and villages, and everything just gets worse and worse.

Investment in early intervention and support services, improved CMS system, and better opportunities (jobs, education, training, housing, access to healthcare) will help break the cycle.

Also, and this is probably a bit controversial and I don't think I'll explain what I mean well, but I don't think the current housing system helps. DC mean automatic priority and eligibility for housing. When there's lack of opportunity and a disadvantaged backgroud, having DC can be seen as the best ambition or option.

I'm not suggesting families shouldn't be housed. Children need homes, and whatever anyone thinks about how responsible or not their parents are, the kids shouldn't suffer because of it. Also it's not simply 'irresponsibility'. Circumstances can change, unplanned life events happen.

However what's really needed is more social housing for everyone including single people and childfree couples and better work and training opportunities and good public services.

That’s ridiculous. My almost 4 year old would be embarrassed to start school in September in nappies. Don’t have kids if you can be bothered to spend time potty training them.

I agree there’s far too many people reliant on the state for everything and think that the state should pay for everything. Someone on another thread was saying it’s too much to expect that people on benefits should work 30 hours because who would look after their children.

In my analogy the NHS is an ice cream. It's not exactly free as it's partly funded by municipal input. It offers general health care, and due to progress and better understanding of more and more conditions and the impact of good general health on the population more services are offered. Later down the line, for political and ideological reasons, the people who use those services find them cut and withdrawn. Suddenly it's the fault of the service users who have been told to use it on the first place fir actually using it ( or trying to these).

Free state education. Implemented to free up parents to work in industry after the industrial revolution, and to plug the gaps in childcare where children used to work in family businesses dependent on agriculture that diminished as factories went up. Of course there was a dawning realisation that putting children to work in dangerous environments was becoming unpalatable, but the main thrust was to restructure society around the new waves of industrialisation and burgeoning global capitalism.

Education was a means to an end and still us for the lower socio-economic spectrum. Turn out a literate, obedient work force primarily, some of whom could capitalise on that for their own betterment but for many, it just let them keep relative pace with progress. The main beneficiaries were employers and the government.

Now of course we have technology. The onus is still on the individual to do well and join the rat race, but expectations change faster and faster, and again, it is used to spread and test ideologies too.

You've only got to look at threads on here that denigrate Education in terms of anything creative or that inspires people, over functional subjects to ensure a better standard of living. When even those choices don't improve an individual's chances or prospects it's always their attitude at fault, never systemic and economic issues.

I could go on but I'm weary and boring myself now. I know what I'm trying to get at - after 55 years if trying to do all the right things, I'm not the only one looking at a complete shitshow of the modern world, and wondering if the madness will ever stop, and seeing that it is just breeding more and more convoluted madness in every direction.

If you read the article linked it's by shona sibary ,who alway,s writes controversial articles
She also appears to be missing the point as she talks about night time nappies which has bo bearing whatsoever on being toilet trained during the day.

Increase your taxes or do you mean increasing tax on someone else??