To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

I completely agree. Although I wouldn’t want children to suffer because their parents are incapable of looking after them properly.
Childcare is terrible expensive but people moan they can’t afford it like it wasn’t their choice to have multiple children!
There was a thread recently where a mum
couldn't potty train her son and said she’d given up and he’d just have to go to school in nappies. Just completely resolving herself of any responsibility.

Yeah, the state's role has definitely been dialled back.

In addition to everything you've listed, we had nationalised energy, transport and water back then too.

We still have a health service, just about, but a lot of treatments have been quietly dropped - chiropody, physiotherapy and ENT all provide a lot less - you are expected to go to a private clinic for a lot of things now. Peripherals and services are hollowed out too - expensive hospital parking and limited patient transport for eg.

And at the same time over the decades as less is provided by the state, we seem to have acquired an entire extra tax ie council tax - which for a lot of people means handing over at least another 10% of their already taxed income.

So we're paying more tax but getting less back.

I guess that's maybe why people now are expressing a wish for increased services.

We were having a row about this at work not long ago and we looked up some statistics from our childhood, we are both old so 1970s/80s. We found that 50% of the population lived in council housing during rhat time.
It explains both the popularity of right to buy, which turned out to have been a Labour policy originally and why so many people struggle with private renting now.
And I agree about how parents see schools, they see us as a service and they really don't like it when we have to say no we aren't going to do that for your child.

Yes, my mum tells me that warm school milk was horrible too. But my point is that it was an example of the state providing something for the benefit of children’s health on the basis that not all parents could/would provide it themselves.

I sometimes roll my eyes when I see posts on here or news stories about people complaining that the council won’t give them big enough house etc, but I remind myself it was only a little more than a generation that the state DID provide these things to those who needed them.

YES. It’s been years I’ve replied to threads about “schools should teach xyz” with “no! Parents should teach xyz”. Whether it’s cooking, budgeting, taxes, anything to do with phones, walking caravans, parking outside schools, how to deal with bullies - whatever.

And not just the state. Ageing parents should provide childcare; step-grandparents should treat step-grandchildren as their own; my siblings should share their good fortune with me; the staff at John Lewis should have done abc for me; my manager at work should take on parental duties for me; my employer needs to accommodate my personal choices wrt my children and leisure activities etc.

An endless stream of adults shirking responsibility for their own choices and actions. In many cases, these are the very same parents who, either through an excess of empathy and love or through deeply felt entitlement, go on to repeat the cycle with their own children. My baby is a princess. Infantilising them well into school years and beyond. Making excuses for them in the outside world, including before teachers and adults with legitimate authority over their children. Modelling entitlement. Shouting the odds if their precious offspring don’t get the best of everything whether they deserve or have a right to it or not.

It’s utterly depressing. As a lifelong Labour voter, and someone who generally thinks she can and should be taxed more if more money can go to those who need it, it’s enough to make you think maybe the state should shrink. Let it be stripped back so only the truly deserving receive. I’m not prepared to pay higher taxes for more inefficient managers in the NHS to squander my cash. I’d gladly pay twice the NI if it means nurses are paid more, waitlists are cut, doctors don’t go on strike, hospital buildings are kept in good repair.

God it would be awesome if we could get back up to 50% council housing again.

Just think how much better it would be if people had secure affordable homes. Much less strain on schools, social services, police, all sorts.

And then there is the older end of things too - caring for elderly relatives, there seems to be a common expectation that someone 'else' will care for them/us(one day) when it used to be that many households included an elderly relative or two.

Me too and I don’t have children. Yes there are some incompetent/ negligent parents but if there is no intervention made then it is the children who are punished not the parents. This also has an effect on future adult citizens and their ability to function and contribute in society.
This thread smells to me of yet more blaming and I’m alright jack mentality yet again.
How long till the benefit bashing starts in earnest?

Well I’m in my 60’s so been around a lot longer than most of MN and also worked in the public sector for 45 years.
Can you list all of these things that used to be provided because I can’t think of a lot?

I provide everything my kids need, and am proud to do so.

But the kids whose parents can't or won't still deserve a decent upbringing.

If we can spend billions raining death upon people, we can spend a few quid feeding kids.

With respect to healthcare.

It is well documented that nearly all humans don't make sensible choices when it comes to healthcare.

They choose to smoke when they know it will kill them in the long term. They choose to over eat when they know it is likely to lead to health problems.

However this isn't a failure of personal responsibility it's a fundamental part of human psychology. The food is here. In 30
Years you might be dead of something else.

Nearly 75% of patients who get physio don't do their daily exercises. raccoon.world/blog/why-patients-dont-do-their-exercises-and-how-to-help-them-complete-their-treatment/#:~:text=identifies%20three%20factors%20that%20reduce,perceived%20helplessness.

Now you can say that all those people are personally irresponsible. fine.

But it won't improve their health, and so a lot of research into healthcare is about getting compliance with what needs to be done - daily physio, daily pills, whatever.

At the point where most people don't do something, it isn't really helpful to say "they are irresponsible". It's more helpful to look at what can be changed so that people do comply and have better health.

And as @HeavensToBetsie just posted - any party that seriously addressed the mass building of social housing estates would have my vote.

First on the list would be a Law that allows local councils to compulsory purchase any land banked by developers with planning permission at original purchase price +10% solely for the building of social housing to rent. Easily available funding from the Public Works Loan Board.

Rents to be set at no more than 60% of local market rents, reducing as the rental market tumbles to more affordable prices.

Now that's the kind of state intervention/provision that's more than worth it's weight in gold.

The state is should do more, but in order to do so taxes need to be raised accordingly. Too many paid for by government/Council resources have been cut often affecting the people who need them most.

It's simple. Raise taxes across the board and allocate the money according to the services in need. So in about 292 years once tory austerity has been repaired, provision can be made to expand and enhance services.

In all seriousness, a step towards enhancing state run services would be to ensure that staffing levels are increased and maintained, wages for public sector workers increased, and an incentive for joining these careers. Make being teachers, police officers, fire fighters, waste disposal technicians, nurses, doctors etc attractive professions to be apart of again.

This is partially why the tories are pushing more people back to work. They need money through taxation, and the more people who are working and working to earn just above the taxable amount will mean more money to prop up the system. Their approach is not nearly good enough and misguided in terms of their execution of this goal.

As a country we are broke ass poor. Britain has ranked 37th out of 39 European countries in regards to child poverty. This is unacceptable.

For those who are complaining and holding their hands out for more, put your money where your mouth is and pay taxes appropriately and proportionally. Either through funds or giving back in some form to the community in which you're taking resources out of it. I do appreciate and understand that some may be dealing with long term illness and disability, I am talking about those who refuse to vote, spoil votes, work just enough to avoid paying taxes, those who use tax loopholes to pay less tax, corporations etc.

Because it's about one step away from life undeserving of life.

I'd rather sort out the inherent inefficiencies and poor management before I stopped treating people because I thought they were stupid

Ot course parents should provide for their DC. But if they can't? Then yes the state should step in. I don't think DC should be left to suffer.

When I had a mental breakdown, I had help feeding my kids (but not from the state, from a church food bank - I got no benefits for about 7 months.)School came and picked my DD up a couple of times. I was and am eternally grateful for the help I received.

That's absolutely key. Remember Sure Start, @FaeryRing? Very successful, defunded by next government.

I got milk at school.it was absolutely vile and has given my a life long hatred of milk ,for some reason it was kept in a warm classroom until after lunch no fridge etc
I don't know wether it was free because I'm 50
Nasty ,horrible stuff.

If we let the "No NHS for you because you have X lifestyle" genie out the bottle and end up leaving some people without care, where the hell do we end up?

People's HIV turning to AIDs because IV drugs/risky sex is bad?

People who develop lung cancer decades after quitting cigarettes being turned away?

Someone with a new heart arrhythmia being turned away after they tell their doctor they've been knocking back energy drinks to cope with working two jobs?

Didn't use factor 50 from March to October, so have fun with that melanoma?

You'd have to have a strong stomach to be the person making the algorithm used to deny people with life threatening illnesses treatment and to be the person who has to say no to the individuals asking for help.

I remember reading in an old novel, set in the 40s or early 50s, about children from poor families being sent to school despite being unwell, ‘because at least they’d get their milk’.

Completely agree. Things get pushed onto schools because there is no support anywhere else.

Hmm
I was at primary school in the 60s, secondary in the 70s. I think then there was more personal responsibility, however, at primary our lunch was served on China plates with knives and forks and we had beakers and water available at the table. We learnt not to spill the water and put our knives and forks together nicely, most of us could anyway.

At secondary we had allocated lunch tables and each year the 6th formers left and the first formers joined. Tables had 8 people on them from different years. We had to forge relationships and get along. The two eldest queued with trays to take back to the table enough food for 8, which they served like "mother".

At primary we were taught how to write a letter and address an envelope. At secondary our head took us for one period a week in what was nominally RE. She told us also about paying bills, abusive men, careful choices, getting pregnant, etc.

Those were valuable experiences, school delivered them as part of normal life. With polystyrene boxes and plastic cutlery much has been lost. I do think those who run schools are largely culpable but in my view we have turned into a nation that values multiple, often worthless qualifications at the expense of a broad education.

All my teachers seemed able to write well and appeared very well educated. My children are now in their late 20s and their teachers did not and I would have had little faith in them teaching table manners.

OTH we ate sweets in the playground, had little or no homework at primary and drinking water was in short supply.

Personally I believe something has gone wrong somewhere but that more state won't help because the standards of a modern state just won't cut it.

Twenty to twenty five years ago, however, I don't recall any 3 to 4 year olds starting school in nappies and I just don't understand what has gone on there. Nurseries for 2.5 and up were draconian in their expectations, rightly or wrongly.

I think this will have to change again though, I think. I just don't see how how we'll manage a society with an ever increasing age profile without maneuvering some care back into the home. I know some people seem to think robots and euthanasia will come to the party but it would be highly unremarkable if it's actually women picking up the bulk of the social fallout.

I am sure lots of people don't actually understand false economy, and that taxes paid should be spent wisely for the sake of society.

I think the level of state involvement in raising quite high taxes but misspending them and having a false economy approach is bonkers

How many of the PP including OP are the same people on other threads who bemoan the state of society, worry and feel sad (rightly) about the decline of many towns, cities, and villages, rising homelessness, drug problems, crime issues, 'feral', children, failing schools, 'sink estates', difficulty accessing their GPs, NHS waiting lists, potholes, expensive or poor provision of public transport, ineffective CMS enforcement, and other social problems?

Unless money is invested in good public services, housing, social care, the NHS, supportive benefits system, and education and training opportunities, society will continue to decline, and even if you have a lack of empathy, it still affects everybody including you.

Money can only insulate you from the problems to an extent. Unless you live a completely cut off hermit life and never ever stray beyond your tiny hamlet or village. Isolated from life (and never needing hospital, or other facilities).

With social problems including disadvantaged or 'problematic' families, there's a need to break the cycle. Poorly funding support services, and failing to provide educational and training opportunities, is false economy.

With rising homelessness and a rising benefits bill, not funding social homes and the NHS is false economy.

The issue really is, apart from actual money, the funding needs to be better spent.

Tackle mismanagement and ensure accountability especially if the public service is a contracted out private company.

Provide better trained staff and crack down on any bullying culture in the company/service. This affects staff performance, causes high staff turnover, and consequently a crap and failing service. Which wastes public money.

(I do agree that misspent money is bonkers. For example, funding mental health counselling schemes for social problems instead of tackling the cause. Which is a need for social homes, better wages and supportive benefits system, encouraging employers to provide training instead of overlooking unemployed job seekers for lack of experience, and cutting NHS wait lists. All these things affect mental health but people need practical solutions rather than counselling in many cases).

I hated it too ! And in the winter they put the crate on the heater to warm it, yuk, I really like lovely cold milk ! I used to cover the bottle with my hands and tip it down the sink