To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

We need tax all income at same rate as salaries.

If you read the article linked it's by shona sibary ,who alway,s writes controversial articles

As I read it, I thought the tone seemed familiar... then I realised it was just like the "Polly Filler" spoof column that ran in Private Eye about 15 years back. She was always complaining about the au pair (a different one every month) and her husband, "The useless Simon". I imagine that Shona was a big part of the inspiration for this character.

I think people have very different levels of needs, so it's never going to be one size fits all.

It's the sense of entitlement that gets me. People think they're entitled to xyz for literally no reason.

Pensioners are the weirdest to me, so many refuse to accept a pension is a benefit (it's the biggest part of the welfare budget), they don't believe they should have been planning themselves for their own personal retirement for the best part of a half century and the government should pay for literally everything they need (and enough for several holidays a year on top). And when pensions are increased and they are given far more money than they actually ever put into the system (even accounting for inflation) then complain they're getting taxed on it! Can't win.

I agree op.
People should take personal responsibility.
I think tough love is needed.

So many people, expect someone else, whether that’s the local authority, the government, the police, the NHS, schools or whoever, to pay for things or do things which they absolutely should be doing themselves.
No wonder the squeezed middle is annoyed. The rich get off scot free and so do those who don’t and won’t work.
Everything had to be paid for.
I seriously think things should be scaled down.
Too many people on the take from those who are slogging their backsides off working to pay for it.

It’s the utterly flippant way in which people make bad life decisions knowing the taxpayer will foot the bill that gets me.

OP: ‘Pregnant after 1 date, meant to take the pill but forgot and I have wonky periods anyway. He’s got 5 other kids that he doesn’t see but told me it’s because his exes are mental. I’m keeping the baby and have no job so what now?’ So there goes thousands in maternity care, thousands in benefits, thousands in medical care and schooling, without her paying a penny. With everyone cheering her on and advising on how to squeeze out the most cash as possible.

It’s mad!

You missed the bit where you explained where all the money comes from! “Higher taxes” doesn’t cover it - are you saying those who work (very) hard to support their own families should also pay for others’?

Read the thread. That comment was about people who indulge in behaviour with health risks and no possible upside - becoming obese, for example - and then expect the health service to fund their treatment. Obviously doesn't apply to women giving birth - that's a social contribution - or people with conditions like cystic fibrosis.

And was so rude! Sneered at me when o said I have collected £45 of points only buying things I would buy anyway. Sneered!

I was at school pick up, first school at that and someone said the school day should run until 4 at least, 3 is no good for working parents. Is definitely seen as free childcare for some 🙈

Oh and what also irritates me is the sneering, lofty way in which some people on benefits speak about those who work and provide their money because they think it’s not enough and anyone who wants to hang on to some of the money they earn is a little England, petty, bourgeois, grasping zealot who should just pay up and shut up.

Yeah I do think people increasingly expect government to fix everything for them. I think if a couple is on UC we should expect at least enough hours of work of a full time job between them, say 40 hours.

I feel a bit conflicted about kids though, I do think it’s worth making sure they understand what normal is. That it’s normal to brush your teeth twice a day, to have clean clothes, to be fed well etc etc. I think those of us from dysfunctional families who turned out okayish often had to work it out slowly by ourselves.

Unfortunately some parents can’t or won’t provide that and none of us can help who our parents are. However teachers can’t be teacher, parent and social worker. I think it would perhaps be better to have a health visitor type of person who basically goes in and checks this stuff is being done, if it isn’t you go to food vouchers because frankly you aren’t responsible enough to decide for yourself. Sometimes some parents show themselves to be either too inept or disinterested to really look after their own children’s interests.

Bottom line is that we can’t actually afford to keep expanding state intervention. Our dependent population is growing and the middle is already taxed heavily and suffering the same COL issues are everyone else. People are going to at some point have to take more responsibility for themselves.

Is there good evidence that there are a greater proportion of children who aren't meeting typical milestones in this generation? I know there's the odd news story here and there that will focus on views, opinions, a particular school or teacher but is there any reasonable markers of school preparedness that is tracked over time?

@AmeliaEarhart
@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER
I still can't drink milk on its own after many years being forced to drink it.
I never got any playtime, as I spent the entire time struggling with the milk, which I never finished.
(We had to drink thru a straw, so the final bit was all the cream at the top... totally disgusting)

I tell you what. Let's go back to the good old days. Let's start with letting nature take its course in terms of infant mortality , maternal mortality, illness, disability and when you get old, Let's just release the sick and dementia ridden into the wild to take their chances. I mean, better that than have them cost a penny that they haven't grubbed for themselves.

Let people live on the streets. Other poor people in distant places manage somehow? And they are happy and grateful and survive on scraps from the better off.

See how quickly the "feckless" pull themselves up eh? And if they don't or can't well, it's a clear indication we're better off without them.

Let's just keep putting profit before people at every turn.

I mean, it won't be pretty for a while. But as long as we have a strong militia to pick off those stealing or committing crimes, we'll be OK. Corpse clearing could take place before "decent, deserving, hardworking" people (or those with inherited wealth) had to venture out of a morning. We could bring back the death penalty for even minor offences of course that'll learn them. And alot of "them" , the feckless undeserving poor that us will probably cull each other if left to their own devices.

Hyperbole? Not so sure these days to be honest.

Given some of the media rhetoric, posts on here etc I think the worst entitlement of all comes from those who are so convinced they will never end up as one of "them" due to a series of unfortunate events and cumulative systemic failures that are occurring by design that if they did they'd have the shock if their lives.

Every single person is dependent in some way on the state, their community their family. It's how the human race works. If we continue to dehumanise each other simply in the interests of self, we're regressing at a terrifying pace and the bastards behing the curtain have won.

See this is the kind of ‘Godwins Law’ which just looks ridiculous, apart from instead of Nazis it’s Victorian workhouses or similar 🙄

It’s a really good question and one that I think about a lot actually.

As far as I’m aware there isn’t. Children do seem to be stalling in their development, particularly around speech and social milestones.

And there does seem to be much much much more SEN than in previous years.

I think we will look back slightly horrified one day that we swept it all under the rug because it’s an uncomfortable topic.

It's apparently what alot of people would be happy with.

Totally agree @MistressoftheDarkSide

It is funny how these type of benefit bashing/welfare state bashing threads are so often started by shiny new posters. Why would that be, I wonder?

And it's no more ridiculous than "parents are wholesale advocating that the state cleans their kids teeth for them"

This thread isn’t about benefits, it’s about personal responsibility (or lack thereof) and given 80% of the votes agree I would say I’m far from the only one to think the expectation of what the state should provide is way too high!

Who said that?

Who? Has anyone actually suggested a return to workhouses or something very similar? In fact have you ever seen a comment on here calling for the abolition of benefits entirely because if you have I would love to see it?

The state has to provide as it's responsible for creating economic deprivation hand in glove with global leaders and organisations milking the poorest to make the rich richer. That's the reason personal responsibility is slipping, people are giving up. If the state doesn't provide it will end up with the unpleasant kind of anarchy and there will be even more blood on their hands.

Lol @ "obviously".
It's not obvious at all to many here on MN that delivering babies into this world is a net social contribution. The Tories have already capped child benefit.

How would you classify women giving birth to babies they know to be disabled in various ways? Downs? Spina bifida? Tay-Sachs?
Should pregnant women be screened and if their babies are not going to be net contributors, given the choice of abortion or funding all future medical care and education for the babies themselves?

The "utility to society" or "social contribution" route is a perilously slippery one.

Every single Briton alive has engaged in behaviour that comes with health risks, including traveling in a car or bus or train. Most have drunk alcohol. Most are now overweight. Most don't get enough exercise.

Hold on, you begrudge you the child in this circumstance free schooling? You begrudge them medical attention?

Which children are worthy of free education in your eyes?

Which children deserve medical attention when they would otherwise screaming in pain?

You've let the mask slip here OP.