Do Italians hate the English or is it the language barrier?

[SoreFeets]

Currently in beautiful Italy. Love it here but we appear to be hated by the staff in most places, especially food/drink settings.

This week alone we’ve had receipts thrown at us, we went to pay for a coffee in a little shop and the woman wouldn’t even look at us, took the money, looked really pissed off and immediately moved on to the next customer without a word (but was happy and smiley with them).

DH hired some bikes and had the keys thrown at him without a word.

Last night in a restaurant the waiters were deliberately tending every table but ours until DH caught the attention of one of them - waiter then took our drinks order but when we tried to order food he threw the menus back onto the table and walked off!! He then said something to another waiter who looked at us and laughed. Nobody came back to take the food order.

Now this exact same thing happened in Rome a few years ago, everyone just seemed to hate us. We would try to book a table in a restaurant and they would say it was full … before letting someone else in 😂

so I looked it up last night and I found no suggestion of Italians having a problem with English …. But what I did find was Italians have no time for people who have not bothered to learn the language.

Is this the problem? I have tried to learn a bit of Italian before coming but nowhere near enough which is obviously my fault. DH doesn’t speak a word of Italian other than Grazie.

We’re coming back next year and I aim to be practically fluent in Italian in that time! AIBU to think/hope we’ll have a totally different experience?

There’s definitely less of the fear of ‘class’ humiliation/putting you in your place from people with non-English heritage in the UK and of course that makes up the vast majority of British inner-city kids.

Very true. I'm British and don't generally slate the Brits about other things. Our attitude to languages is just a personal bugbear of mine because I've spent a long time dealing with it directly and it can be pretty frustrating, especially when people think it stems from some innate national incapacity to learn languages!

There’s definitely less of the fear of ‘class’ humiliation/putting you in your place from people with non-English heritage in the UK and of course that makes up the vast majority of British inner-city kids.

Yes. The places I've found it to be worst have been in fairly rural, very white communities. It's a shame that primary school MFL teaching is so piecemeal and of very varied quality. At that age they are usually much more receptive and have no real preconceptions about making 'funny sounds' and you can make it really fun.

Well yes, it is a modern reality. But it should not be an excuse for never making the effort, and just shout louder and louder in English as in 'English is the international language, don't you know'.

I know Brits who have lived abroad for years, decades even- who can't speak more than a few words, as they live in expat ghettos. Just plain rude, ignorant and arrogant.

There are plenty of people in the UK who can’t speak a word of English. I know someone whose 80 year old dad has lived here for 50 years and can only speak Cantonese.

Do you think he is ‘Just plain rude, ignorant and arrogant.’ @fungipie ? How about all those who can only speak Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, etc? Are they all ‘Just plain rude, ignorant and arrogant.’?

I live in a very multicultural town- most immigrants speak both their MT AND English. But some of the elders don't, depending on their background. I used to teach many Bengali children, whose parents didn't speak English. They came from a very poor rural area of Bangladesh, and could not read or write, or speak Bengali, only dialect. Hindus and those from Uganda, and East Europeans, all spoke several languages, as well as perfect English, in all 4 skills.

Every British expat living in Europe or anywhere in the world has had at least 9 years in school. Most of the expats I know have Degrees, Masters and PhDs. They have NO excuse for not learning the language of where they work and live.

Very basic RESPECT

Yes flakypoet is right, it is about self-interest but also power: language is about power. Personaĺ, economic or otherwise. Which is why I have a problem with this very English thing (as opposed to eg Welsh) of seeing language learning as a one-way street. It makes English people look bad.

The British Isles do have several heritage Celtic languages and many more children could be raised speaking them and develop their linguistic ability, which is an important skill. But instead the prevailing political powers choose to value these things at zero and let them die out.

Also, if there was any genuine desire for integration and learning about the world, GCSE Polish, Gujarati and Turkish would be mainstream FL in all schools by now. Without fear.

I wonder if it’s part of the current Tenerife backlash against tourism? Bit counterintuitive to bite the hand that feeds you, tho.

I learnt basics when I went to Greece but felt very lost. I’m fluent in French and Spanish, I’ve had to get out ID to prove I’m not French occasionally. I’m much more comfortable in countries where they speak either of those. Only ever been to Venice and didn’t have much to do with the locals, I was with an Italian colleague.

You have truly lost me now. Are you saying that people who don’t intend to live in or regularly visit Wales should learn Welsh? Would that help to redistribute power in the world? Do you think people who have no intention of visiting India should learn Gujurati?

It is my opinion that school is for learning useful things. I think it’s great that the Welsh have fought really hard to keep their language alive, but it’s a really hard language to learn and quite a struggle for adult learners. Why would people learn it outside Wales?

In my opinion English kids should be taught Spanish and ideally Mandarin, in term of usefulness.

When it comes to English being the currently recognised international language and not Esperanto, or German, or Welsh, or whatever, it’s time to accept that this ship has sailed. Enough of the sour grapes.

Hating and putting down English people. Calling us lazy, entitled, arrogant, rude, unsophisticated, uneducated, ignorant, etc, is not going to change anything.

It might make some people feel better to get on their high horse, all judgemental, full of disdain, and make English people cringe with guilt, fear and shame about the situation, but that won’t change it.

Yes flakypoet, yes to all 4 of your questions. As for schools teaching useful stuff, I wholeheartedly agree, why can't they teach a bit of interest, care and respect for cultural and linguistic identity? As multiculturalism is here to stay and we all have to at least try to understand each other. Speaking a person's language is the best way to get to know them.

I’m getting some serious double standards here.

So you are saying that English people should learn the languages of people who settle here, rather than people who settle here should learn the native language of England, where they’ve settled.

So when a new influx of people from another country move here, this should be taught in schools. So my kids would learn Gujurati, Urdu, Polish, Lithuanian, German, Creole, Romanian, Ukrainian, Yoruba, Arabic, Hebrew, Welsh, Aramaic, Mandarin… that’s just off the top of my head - from the backgrounds of their friends.

I think that would be excessive and not actually that helpful. There also wouldn’t be the time.

On the other hand, English people who move to other countries should also learn the native languages there.

It means that the onus is always on the English person to learn other people’s languages, even if there is no practical benefit for us, otherwise we are being disrespectful.

I have to say this again.

People whose mother tongue is not English do not learn English out of respect for English people. They do not learn it because they are morally good, outward-looking and want to get to know English speakers. They learn it because it is useful to them.

If you read my posts again flakypoet you'll see I didn't really say any of that, and that it largely came out of your own head. I'll leave you to it.

Yes flakypoet, yes to all 4 of your questions.

YES - people who don’t intend to live in or regularly visit Wales should learn Welsh.
YES - that would help to redistribute power in the world.
YES - people who have no intention of visiting India should learn Gujurati.

I don’t know what the 4th question the answer was yes to.

You also said “if there was any genuine desire for integration and learning about the world, GCSE Polish, Gujarati and Turkish would be mainstream FL in all schools by now.”

No milky drinks after lunchtime as is bad for your digestion . Learnt that from the current Michael portillo travel show. Cappuccino is a breakfast coffee - courtesy of Giles Coren. The woman micheal was talking to was quite incredulous that Brits would order a milky coffee to go with their pasta.

How do you know it was abuse if you can’t speak Italian!

Also, it is possible that it was accidentally phrased like “I don’t speak to Italians” and caused offence.