Page 13 | If you're a parent would you think this was ridiculous if I pulled you aside after school for this?

L4815162342 · 2024-05-09T21:34:52+00:00

I work in a school. A 5/6 year old today trod on a small bug. He did this on purpose. I'd like to say it was because he didn't know better but this was half an hour after a lesson on looking after the environment and things we could do to care for nature. Lots was mentioned about animals, etc. I pulled the child up and spoke to him about his behaviour. He essentially received the equivalent of a bad behaviour point as a result. If you were pulled aside after school as a parent and told about this incident would you think it was ridiculous? I know people have different views, some would draw the line at hurting an animal the size of a cat, for example, but wouldn't bat an eyelash at killing a spider.

Calliopespa · 10/05/2024 12:52

seagullsky · 10/05/2024 12:37

I'd only expect to be told if my child was actively seeking out bugs to squish and it was a pattern. As a one-off event I'd just expect the teacher to say at the time something like "remember we talked about being kind to nature" and then take it no further. I wouldn't be thrilled about them getting a behaviour point.

Rules around bugs are hard for children as they are so context-dependent. In the last couple of weeks, I've praised my children for being gentle with the insects they found in the garden, but have also put down ant-bait to deal with an ant infestation in the house. We currently have a problem with box-tree moths and advice is to hand-remove (and kill) the caterpillars if they are killing a tree (which is ecologically better than pesticides) - but if my children were just randomly squishing caterpillars I'd be unhappy and go on at them about respect for nature and the cycle of life.

It's all very well to say 'it's fine to kill if there's a good reason (e.g pest control, invasive species, causing damage or harm) but not for pleasure', but that's too subtle for a 5 year old to understand. What they see is "sometimes grown-ups stamp/poison bugs and it's okay, and sometimes they talk about gentle hands and loving nature. When I copied them stamping I got into trouble but then I went home and mummy swatted a fly."

I still remember when I was about 5, there were ants nests in the school playground. Some of the boys went and stamped on the ants because they thought it was funny and got told off (I was very upset as I loved watching ants). Then the teachers went out with a kettle and poured it over the ants nest. Clearly from the teachers' perspective, this was fine as they were dealing with a pest infestation whereas the boys were just being cruel, but from the children's perspective it made no sense at all.

This post very much reflects the kinds of nuances that I also think are tricky for a child that age. Tbh even for me as an adult I can have mixed feelings at times. Nature is a wondrous system that is greater and more complicated than we can really fully grasp in one sweep. I often think this when reading a story about, say, an owl finding a nice mouse for supper. Yay! Nice owl has been fed and can fly home to her cute fluffy babies and vomit it up. But then pick up the next book to read them a story about Brambly Hedge mice and the thought of some great feathered beast swooping in and scooping up little Primrose mouse seems suddenly horrific.

It’s too layered and multi-faceted a topic for the sort of simplistic, black and white thinking you are trying to superimpose into it - and, like this poster, I’d actually be irritated about the behaviour point.

Calliopespa · 10/05/2024 12:55

Daysnconfuddled · 10/05/2024 11:56

@Abeona absolutely. There is a authoritarian streak in the name of ‘doing good’ in the shroud of moral superiority.

This is a worrying trend in our society.

User0224 · 10/05/2024 12:57

I’d want to know. A childhood friend used to kill bugs for fun, then hamsters…we lost touch but I’ve since learned he’s a terrifying human being you wouldn’t want to meet in a dark alley !

JLou08 · 10/05/2024 13:02

Yes I would. Especially if the school was serving up meat for lunch.
I've killed bugs as an instant reaction from fear when I see them. Maybe this child's parents have done the same so he thought nothing of it.
I do actually feel bad when I kill a bug but I wouldn't be judging someone else who didn't.

LostFuse · 10/05/2024 13:05

willWillSmithsmith · 10/05/2024 08:43

We are a house where spiders are taken outside, wasps and bluebottles are guided to an open window and daddy long legs can stay in their corners. I had to get rid of an ant infestation a few years ago, I didn’t like it but it had to be done.

Teach them when they’re young to respect even tiny living creatures (I will make an exception for nits!).

Putting spiders outside is basically a death sentence.

Myth: "I'm very kind to spiders; when I find one in the house, I put it back outside instead of killing it."
Fact: You can't put something "back" outside that was never outside in the first place. Although some house spider species can survive outdoors, most don't do well there, and some (which are native to other climates) will perish rather quickly when removed from the protective indoor habitat. You're not doing them a favor.
In any case, house spiders are mostly harmless and beneficial. Human property rights mean nothing to other species. There was spider habitat for millions of years where your home is now. My advice is, "just wave as they go by."

Unopenedpackofmenssocks · 10/05/2024 13:06

OrangeLemonLime24 · 09/05/2024 22:42

I’d absolutely want to be told. No harming of any animal happens in this house so I’d see it as a really big deal if one of my children did this.

Tell me you’re a vegan without telling me you’re a vegan…

Calliopespa · 10/05/2024 13:07

Abeona · 10/05/2024 12:50

This, excellent response. The OP's black and white thinking is quite troubling, because as @seagullsky says, this is a nuanced situation.

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We crossed posts and have said almost exactly the same thing! I agree: you can’t reduce some issues down to a hard and fast rule and by trying to you gloss over too much.

Mumofoneandone · 10/05/2024 13:09

I remember a teacher pulling me over after school to tell me my 3 year old daughter had pulled the paper casing off a crayon!!! 🖍️ Your comment is up there with utterly ridiculous....

Unopenedpackofmenssocks · 10/05/2024 13:09

L4815162342 · 10/05/2024 00:32

I don't recall referring to the child as a psychopath. I never said it. I never implied it. Calm down.

It's year one. Mainly six year olds. They know right from wrong.

(As an aside, I never once mentioned four year olds in my OP.)

I have my own five year old. They also have ASD. They know it's wrong to do this kind of thing.

There is nothing damaging about pulling up a child for doing something deliberately cruel, under an hour after they've had a lesson (and not the first) about caring for nature and animals.

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I think you should report that post by @Theemeperorsnewclothes as a personal attack OP.

Divasaurus · 10/05/2024 13:11

I have a child with SEN who loves animals and has understood from around that age (I think even younger) that hurting them is cruel. Based on that, a (presumably) NT 5-6 year old should absolutely understand that it is cruel. I would not necessarily expect a teacher to report home about it but can understand why you did. As a parent I would appreciate being told and would use it as an opportunity to talk with DC about the importance of being kind.

Divasaurus · 10/05/2024 13:12

I have a child with SEN who loves animals and has understood from around that age (I think even younger) that hurting them is cruel. Based on that, a (presumably) NT 5-6 year old should absolutely understand that it is cruel. I would not necessarily expect a teacher to report home about it but can understand why you did. As a parent I would appreciate being told and would use it as an opportunity to talk with DC about the importance of being kind.

CammyChameleon · 10/05/2024 13:18

If the kid's irrationally scared of bugs and one suddenly appears, they might stamp on it to get rid of it without thinking it through.

My older two kids were either indifferent or interested about bugs at this age, but I've only just managed to get my 5 y/o to not stamp on random bugs.

ontheflighttosingapore · 10/05/2024 13:20

A five year old is definitely aware of what they are doing and if brought up properly they know that treading on bugs on purpose is cruel. All my children knew this from a young g age and if they had of done this I would want to be told without a doubt

WittyFatball · 10/05/2024 13:21

Wonder how people would feel about the teacher giving a lesson about the cruelty of the dairy industry and explaining what really happens to cows and their babies - and then giving behaviour points out for children drinking milk purely for their own pleasure when they don't need to?

Anonymous2025 · 10/05/2024 13:32

honestly , unless this child did it non stop I would completely brush this off and think this teacher lacks perspective in how to deal with young kids .
I kill big spider in the home , some would be horrified by this . I always picket them up to put outside until one day one literally jumped on my chest and went inside my clothes . I can’t do it anymore . I would never hurt one outside but the house I find it impossible .

ThatLibraryDebate · 10/05/2024 13:33

From a teacher's point of view I wouldn't bother telling a parent about it. You witnessed it, you dealt with it at the time, no further action was needed IMO.

As for all the mumsneters who don't see a difference between slaughtering a chicken for food and stamping on a bug for a second of entertainment...

Starlight330 · 10/05/2024 13:33

theworldsmad · 10/05/2024 12:06

Cricket this reminds me of an incident when we first came to the UK. A woman at my husband's work saw a spider, yelled and jumped on her chair. My husband (ever so kindly) came over and squashed the spider. The woman looked horrified, she was so angry that he killed it. He was mortified, he thought he did her a favour. Where were from half the spiders are poisonous so you def kill them on sight. I always think people in the UK can afford to take the moral high ground because they really don't have any animals threatening their survival. If I see a black widow spider you best believe I'll squash it, I won't put it outside so that it can climb back into my child's crib. And I kill other spiders too because some of them are called false widows so not poisonous but they are very hard to distinguish so no one takes a chance. Same with snakes, rats, mice, killed on sight. Really you can only afford to not step on bugs because they're all harmless.
So yeah I would think the teacher is a bit soft. Obv we still don't condone unnecessary cruelty, ie kids pulling legs of spiders or something like that. Sure if my kid went around killing ladybugs for no reason I'd want to now but it it was a one off and another kid maybe yelled or something I wouldn't think it warranted telling me.

Most sensible post on this thread.

MamaTiny · 10/05/2024 13:35

If the bug was inside and not out in nature, then I would probably assume that he sees that as being acceptable if he is mimicking his parents. Either way, though I personally think it’s not a huge deal due to age, I still would definitely mention it to mom/dad. I wouldn’t sound like you are a moment away from suspending his behind lol but I might say something like…

”Hi (Ms./Mr. Whomever) I just want to let you in on some things we’re learning about such as taking care of the environment and being respectful of nature. Sadly during the lesson he then went on to squish a bug… ☺️ we don’t want to have that type of practice and especially during class. A lot of times kids mimick things they see at home and not realize why and what exactly they see. If you don’t mind trying to help demonstrate the value of nature life while outside during playtime, that would be great for his learning and development!”

ontheflighttosingapore · 10/05/2024 13:36

WittyFatball · 10/05/2024 13:21

Wonder how people would feel about the teacher giving a lesson about the cruelty of the dairy industry and explaining what really happens to cows and their babies - and then giving behaviour points out for children drinking milk purely for their own pleasure when they don't need to?

It we arnt talking about that. It would be amazing if they did though ! We are talking about purposely stamping on bugs and I believe the parent should know not that most of them would probably be bothered sadly

MrsSunshine2b · 10/05/2024 13:37

Surely that's something you can deal with in school without needing to involve parents? I let all the kids that come around my house/garden know that if they squash any living creatures they'll have to go home and not come back, after my stepdaughter thought it was OK to kill a large house spider because one of her friends was scared of it. We'd been cohabiting very happily with Harriet for quite some time and I was genuinely upset they'd killed her. I was perfectly able to manage the situation myself without needing to go off and inform anyone's parents.

IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine · 10/05/2024 13:39

I would definitely want to know- I'd be mortified if my child did this and would treat it seriously.

Reminds me of the time a Reception child was sent to me in disgrace for throwing a frog at a wall (I was a Year 6 teacher, but I was the one who would rescue lost frogs and deliver them to the school pond every February, so I suppose his teacher thought I was the most qualified person to deal with the situation!). I made him make a "Save the Frogs" poster.

Christmas202 · 10/05/2024 13:40

In our family We shoot pheasant for sport. Everyone in my family can shoot. It’s not for everyone, so for a tiny bug I would think the teacher overreacted.

Sunnyandsilly · 10/05/2024 13:40

I’d think ridiculous, and quite frankly as a grown arse adult I kill bugs , ants, spiders, wasps etc.

Sunnyandsilly · 10/05/2024 13:41

MamaTiny · 10/05/2024 13:35

If the bug was inside and not out in nature, then I would probably assume that he sees that as being acceptable if he is mimicking his parents. Either way, though I personally think it’s not a huge deal due to age, I still would definitely mention it to mom/dad. I wouldn’t sound like you are a moment away from suspending his behind lol but I might say something like…

”Hi (Ms./Mr. Whomever) I just want to let you in on some things we’re learning about such as taking care of the environment and being respectful of nature. Sadly during the lesson he then went on to squish a bug… ☺️ we don’t want to have that type of practice and especially during class. A lot of times kids mimick things they see at home and not realize why and what exactly they see. If you don’t mind trying to help demonstrate the value of nature life while outside during playtime, that would be great for his learning and development!”

seriously? I’d think how ridiculous. 😂

oatmilkcappuccino · 10/05/2024 13:46

WittyFatball · 10/05/2024 13:21

Wonder how people would feel about the teacher giving a lesson about the cruelty of the dairy industry and explaining what really happens to cows and their babies - and then giving behaviour points out for children drinking milk purely for their own pleasure when they don't need to?

Children are not responsible for their food choices though. They have no option but to eat/drink what the adults caring for them give them. They are not able to pop into the supermarket and buy a dairy free alternative.