If you're a parent would you think this was ridiculous if I pulled you aside after school for this?

[L4815162342]

I work in a school.

A 5/6 year old today trod on a small bug. He did this on purpose.

I'd like to say it was because he didn't know better but this was half an hour after a lesson on looking after the environment and things we could do to care for nature. Lots was mentioned about animals, etc.

I pulled the child up and spoke to him about his behaviour. He essentially received the equivalent of a bad behaviour point as a result.

If you were pulled aside after school as a parent and told about this incident would you think it was ridiculous?

I know people have different views, some would draw the line at hurting an animal the size of a cat, for example, but wouldn't bat an eyelash at killing a spider.

My daughter was given a 15 minute time out at about the same age for standing on a spider at school after her friends told the teacher. I’ll be honest - I thought it was ridiculous despite feeling sorry for the spider!

Op yabvu. Absolutely ridiculous in fact. Some bugs are pests and carry diseases, it cannot be that it is an absolute rule to ‘not kill bugs’. That’s the wrong message to impress on a child. It’s not like he was pulling wings off a butterfly, is it.

Because the OP is taking a moral 'I know better, there's nothing you can teach me' stance which seems to have taken hold in lots of schools — particularly around the transgender issuebut other things too. Very black and white thinking. Lots of people on here wouldn't think twice about a child stamping on an ant. Perhaps that child's seen its parents stamping on ants or earwigs or woodlice or silverfish or wasps or carpet moths if they've had an infestation in their homes.

Anyone in a position of authority who is certain they know best should send up a red flag. No one is ever right on all things, no matter how well-motivated. Wise, experienced, thoughtful people know this and recognise how dangerous a reply which says basically 'there's nothing you can teach me' is. We can all learn.

I am sat here reading this with a wasp and fly killer spray beside me as my windows wide open and fly/wasps keep coming in. I kill spiders I hate them I kill ants I kill moths. Sorry

@Abeona absolutely. There is a authoritarian streak in the name of ‘doing good’ in the shroud of moral superiority.

A behaviour point. I see the ultra micromanaging of the behaviour of children has begun. I'm sure this will help society.

The bug just needs to be thankful that I wasn’t on that playground with my Dyson 🐜

I’d be happy you pulled him up on it at the time, but you bringing it up to me hours later seems OTT, yes. What do you want me to do about it that you didn’t do yourself at the time? Telling him not to do it, hours later when he’s probs forgotten he even did it, isn’t going to have much effect.

And yep, vegetarian who doesn’t kill bugs here. I still don’t think tell me to tell him off hours later is going to do any good.

Cricket this reminds me of an incident when we first came to the UK. A woman at my husband's work saw a spider, yelled and jumped on her chair. My husband (ever so kindly) came over and squashed the spider. The woman looked horrified, she was so angry that he killed it. He was mortified, he thought he did her a favour. Where were from half the spiders are poisonous so you def kill them on sight. I always think people in the UK can afford to take the moral high ground because they really don't have any animals threatening their survival. If I see a black widow spider you best believe I'll squash it, I won't put it outside so that it can climb back into my child's crib. And I kill other spiders too because some of them are called false widows so not poisonous but they are very hard to distinguish so no one takes a chance. Same with snakes, rats, mice, killed on sight. Really you can only afford to not step on bugs because they're all harmless.
So yeah I would think the teacher is a bit soft. Obv we still don't condone unnecessary cruelty, ie kids pulling legs of spiders or something like that. Sure if my kid went around killing ladybugs for no reason I'd want to now but it it was a one off and another kid maybe yelled or something I wouldn't think it warranted telling me.

So if you weren’t allergic you’d let them bite you happily?

ComtesseDeSpair

It’s a personal ethical view. Most people worm and flea their pets, is that cruel? Are mousetraps cruel? Swatting flies / fly paper? Slug pellets? Yes, many parents would think you were overstepping and at best, ignore you.

Do people know you can get live mouse traps (as in you can free them afterwards?), that you can open windows and whoosh out insects/flies/trap a spider under a glass and put it somewhere away from your house? Can’t fix everything that way but some things are easy to get out alive. Also it’s the act of not caring that you’re hurting something that people take issue with because at 5/6 they’re supposed to live in their nice little’wow look at this’ cocoon as opposed to ‘ugh-kill!!!’

Ps wasp sprays etc are really bad for humans too, heard a guy say that in the 80s they traced loads of bronchial issues to people who used bug sprays regularly over the summer months (and spray air fresheners actually too)

No they don’t to some. And some bugs, the vast majority of us kill. If there is a mosquito buzzing around you, most of us squash it right? Even vegetarian, nature loving folk like me, do that. Yes, it’s good to help this boy learn empathy, but a sanction was OTT.

Oh dear god. A 5 year old squashing a bug is well within the realms of normal behaviour, not just for a 5 year old, but for adults too. A sanction was OTT.

I’m not sure spraying roses is much of a hobby any more than getting out a can of raid to kill a blue bottle

I agree. I am more likely to rescue than kill a bug. But I used to pull crane fly legs off. I’ve turned out to be a very empathic person. Too empathic half the time!! It’s well within the norms of childhood behaviour. It’s not pretty. But impulse control develops gradually over time. Some adults never get there! Totally OTT of the OP.

What are you looking for in starting this thread @L4815162342 ?

house point?
pat on the back for doing your job?

mind you… I’ve had calls for my now 18yo from idiotic head of year over ds playing with cucumber on a wet day break time. Trying to make out it could be dangerous to those with allergies. 🙄🙄

You have a 5yo. Who atm and on this score knows acceptable behaviour. That doesn’t make you an expert or a child whisperer. Some kids don’t get it, until you tell them or remind them.

you’ve spoken to the child, as was right, no need to take to the internet for validation.

Ive killed hundreds of bladdy ants today - damn things have a nest somewhere i can't work out FFS. My kids help me kill them to. Just saying...

Something that can harm me - I will get rid of it (though I try to usher out of the window first.) A harmless spider or ant - cruel, disgusting behaviour

The absolute breathtaking hypocrisy. So when I was bitten by a spider and needed antibiotics, and the spider was subsequently killed (as a reflex by the way), I'm "cruel and disgusting" but you're not?!

When I was stung by a wasp and swatted it - didn't need ABs then - I'm "cruel and disgusting".

If you addressed it at the time I'm not sure what you'd hope to achieve by telling the parent.

If they'd be thankful you told them, then they are the sort of parent who would address it with their kid if and when they saw them do it at home. So telling the parent is just laying it on for the kid.

If they'd roll their eyes, they are maybe the sort of parent who wouldn't care anyway.

Or they might be in the middle like me. I'd roll my eyes at this resulting in 'having a word', I'd be a bit disappointed in my child for doing it, as they'd have been brought up not to, but as it had been dealt with by the school that's the end of it for me. I'd listen to you, say thanks for letting me know, but that's all.

I'd only expect to be told if my child was actively seeking out bugs to squish and it was a pattern. As a one-off event I'd just expect the teacher to say at the time something like "remember we talked about being kind to nature" and then take it no further. I wouldn't be thrilled about them getting a behaviour point.

Rules around bugs are hard for children as they are so context-dependent. In the last couple of weeks, I've praised my children for being gentle with the insects they found in the garden, but have also put down ant-bait to deal with an ant infestation in the house. We currently have a problem with box-tree moths and advice is to hand-remove (and kill) the caterpillars if they are killing a tree (which is ecologically better than pesticides) - but if my children were just randomly squishing caterpillars I'd be unhappy and go on at them about respect for nature and the cycle of life.

It's all very well to say 'it's fine to kill if there's a good reason (e.g pest control, invasive species, causing damage or harm) but not for pleasure', but that's too subtle for a 5 year old to understand. What they see is "sometimes grown-ups stamp/poison bugs and it's okay, and sometimes they talk about gentle hands and loving nature. When I copied them stamping I got into trouble but then I went home and mummy swatted a fly."

I still remember when I was about 5, there were ants nests in the school playground. Some of the boys went and stamped on the ants because they thought it was funny and got told off (I was very upset as I loved watching ants). Then the teachers went out with a kettle and poured it over the ants nest. Clearly from the teachers' perspective, this was fine as they were dealing with a pest infestation whereas the boys were just being cruel, but from the children's perspective it made no sense at all.

I think wantonly killing bugs is cruel, and I’d be glad a teacher pulled this up.

If we kill anything at home - carpet moths, or setting mousetraps - I always explain to my son first why it’s justified. We rescue spiders from the bath.

I understand that there’s a cultural element - because we live in the UK - but it’s important to be sensitive to our environment and fellow creatures. I’m in Scotland, and for that reason (possibly for that reason alone!) I’m glad all the school kids read Robert Burns “To a moose”.

Yes I agree the type of bug makes a difference.

Ticks, fleas and mosquitoes often need killing as they present safety risks - sometimes significant. And mice / rats and flies in homes are also not hygienic.

It’s a lovely ideal but life is more nuanced than that so I think if you mentioned it quite a few parents might find it OTT.

Is eating meat psychopathic? After all it's not necessary and it's essentially just for taste pleasure. It's perfectly possible to thrive without eating any animal products.

Mountain out of molehill. If the kid is a psycho there will be far bigger signs than squishing a bug. Fine, pull them up on it but I would be very surprised indeed to be pulled aside about it in isolation from any other behavioural issues

This, excellent response. The OP's black and white thinking is quite troubling, because as @seagullsky says, this is a nuanced situation.