Do you “let” your kids speak to you like shit

[Scootsville]

DS has ADHD and probably ASD. Yes I’ve looked up PDA parenting strategies etc.

He is 8, so wondering how much of this is down to age and how much to being ND.

He is the eldest and currently finding his brother SO ANNOYING so it really feels like living with a hormonal teen. The way he speaks to us his parents. He doesn’t swear or call us names (yet) but the tone, the lack of manners, telling us how annoying we are. To his friends’ parents and people in shops/cafes etc he is very polite.

He is pulled up every single time he speaks to us rudely or is unkind to his brother, he has screen bans left right and centre. I try and praise every little thing he does that isn’t a battle and offer to read or play a board game with him, but our relationship at the moment is rubbish with him being told off and given consequences 1000 a day. And I seriously worry about him developing a conduct disorder because of it, I know ND children are typically corrected much more than their peers as it is.

But I don’t think the answer is to let him speak to us like shit?

Our DS’ sound very similar. Mine also keeps it in check in school although does have a tendency to call out/get up when he shouldn’t, how bad it is depends on how tired he is (he’s at his best in the mornings at school). Getting dressed in the big trigger here.

Is yours medicated? Mine isn’t yet but it’s something we’re starting to explore and I’m (maybe naively) hoping it’s going to help the emotional regulation.

Absolutely, but the risk with ADHD is that too much negativity/reprimanding results in a serious conduct disorder.

Both DH and I were brought up my the manners police, and politeness is non negotiable in our household. We literally have zero tolerance for rudeness, and every slip up is called out, and apologies demanded.
We are also screen-free (kids are 9 and 7 so don't need them), but bad behaviour comes with appropriate consequences. Calling someone a moron would definitely result in a few cancelled parties/play dates/privileges.

Daily battles happen over things that I naively think should be easy/simple. Brushing teeth is a big trigger for some reason! Generally being asked to do tasks will often involve a sudden outburst and a rude tone/shouting at me

As per my username i have adhd and probably asd and i hate having to do things like teeth brushing. I do it, obviously, but sometimes I'll need to give myself quite a bit of time to convince myself to do it. I get task paralysis - I'm literally rooted to the spot and it feels like i have to mentally wrench myself to make myself do the thing - like getting out of the bath. I love baths, but hate getting out of the bath and getting dried. Sometimes I'll sit there for 20 minutes getting cold trying to tell myself to get out of the bath. It's quite distressing sometimes because you want to want to do it, you know you have to do it - but you can't. Dh will knock the bathroom door if I've been there ages in case i am stuck in task paralysis mode.

We also struggle to transition between tasks, so even though you know teeth need brushing every day at the same time, your dc may forget or not notice the passing of time then suddenly you're telling him to brush his teeth but he's busy doing something - this could be why he's struggling. I found mine improved when i printed out a daily routine which they had input into, and taught them to tell the time. They have chores, but within reason i let them decide when they do them, or i give them plenty of notice and repeated reminders that the task needs doing .

We use Alexa a lot as well, to set timers to count them down to when things need to happen by. I get my dc to set their own timers to give them responsibility for themselves. If they don't do things in a certain time and they run out of time to do the thing they wanted to do - well that's tough. Natural consequences are good and work a lot better for us than just randomly taking stuff away. Be clear about consequences and stick to them.

We also talk A LOT about the whys - why is important to brush teeth, why its important to go to school, why we need to eat healthy etc. I find if i understand the why, i take things on board a lot better.

Me and my dc hate routine tasks because there's no dopamine in it. Sometimes I'll get my dc toothbrushes ready for them even though they are well and truly capable of doing it, because getting started on a boring task is the hardest bit. Often once i get them started and have removed the mental barrier that's stopping them, they can get on with it.

Have you tried when he's not doing great behaviour comments like
'do we think this is a wise choice' ' do you think we should stop' 'have I told you before not to do that'

Also which is controversial. If he says you are being annoying respond with 'well you are annoying' and then say how didn't that make you feel? Because that's how I feel when you say that. Then obviously make it clear that he's not annoying but just to give him the shock factor one time

As others have said let most things go unless he's wrecking the house or a danger to himself or others or of course annoying other children

Also do you have a sensory swing. They are great and rather than banning screen time etc literally tell him to go calm down in the swing and when HE is ready to be kind then HE can decide when to come back out

No I don't, but my DS is NT so I appreciate it's probably less challenging for me.

I’m AuDHD (late diagnosed) and I suspect DD is too. We had similar issues, probably worst about aged 6. The attitude! Refusal to do even the basic tasks..like I recall one huge battle because she couldn’t/wouldn’t change her socks and they stank. I was honestly in tears with it. Asked ND friends who are parents, was recommended ‘1, 2, 3 magic’ and ‘The Explosive Child’. Both helped immensely. What I liked about the explosive child is that it’s not aimed at any specific condition but you sit down and it gives you the tools to work out what the key issues are, how to facilitate the change you need to see. Key take away is ‘all children want to do well if they possibly can’. so if your DS isn’t, why not? Also is there maybe demand avoidance? If he refuses to do things from a direct demand like ‘Put your shoes on’ it might be that. I’ve found DD is better when I make it sound like a choice, phrasing like ‘It would be great if you could get your shoes on now’. ‘Just a gentle reminder it’s time for x/x is outstanding’.
Music practice has been a massive sticking point and she’s done a lot more since I put it like that.

Key thing? Be positive. I love bombed my child! (In a good way). Every tiny thing even if it was just ‘Hey you put your shoes on!’. ‘Well done for brushing your teeth. Excellent!’ Every tiny little thing I praised until things started to turn around. Key for us though was improving her sleep. It was a LOT of work but once we cracked it, she was happpier and the other things like getting dressed, brushing teeth, were easier.
5 years on things are much better. Hormones are kicking in! But a couple of weeks ago I saw a massive attitude over something I had no control over so I simply said ‘You’re being very rude to me. I’m going to let you calm down’ and gave her space. I’m around but not in her face. She came and apologised spontaneously after an hour. Was I raging inside? Perhaps! But me rising to meet it doesn’t help. I’m divorced from her Dad. Unfortunately he thinks the best thing to do is come down on her really hard (he thinks I’m soft). He forces an apology, backs her into a corner, seems surprised that she doesn’t want to spend much time at his house! I’ve found a generally positive and gentle approach with a firm ‘Er that’s rude, I’ll wait til you’re calm’ when she plays up best personally. Not saying I get it right all the time! 😄 but it’s definitely better for the changes implemented in 1. 2. 3 magic and Explosive child.

No not medicated. We wanted to try some of the ADHD coaching techniques first and also because he is (currently) doing OK in school. He is quite smart, so he's managed to keep up with learning at school despite not being able to focus 100% - however, I'm sure he could do much better if the ADHD wasn't at play. School are happy with him so far and no worries, but his progress is beginning to level out a bit (whereas he was making a lot of progress with learning in prior academic years).

My now adult son has ADHD and mild asd and he would have never in a million years spoken to us rudely. We didn't tolerate it. ADHD and asd are not "get out of acting like a decent human being" cards.

Try to position yourself along side him, rather than opposite him. You're doing this together for the long haul, and he's a person with his own path, not a project for you to finish and get right.

I absolutely love this.

I've had to forget everything i thought i knew about parenting and relearn from a ND perspective. When i learnt to position myself alongside them, i empathise with them and let them know i struggle with things like that too, and this is how i deal with it - it's changed everything. I can talk about things i have found hard, what i struggled with at school, and i can help them and understand them in a way that nobody was ever able to do for me. I can put words to their emotions which helps them to understand what's going on and why they feel the way they do.

I think it clicked when i took them shoe shopping, on a busy Sunday because i hadn't noticed they really, really needed new school shoes (thanks adhd!). We all hate shoe shopping, they were getting very antsy and i was getting wound up. and it's when i said "look, i hate shoe shopping as much as you do, why don't we all agree to just get this over and done with as quickly as we can, so we can go home?" And we did. We all looked at each other, me and these two little 6 year olds at the time, and we all seemed to recognise in the same second that we all find it hard but we are actually in it together and I'm on their side. Up till then i think they were mainly struggling that they thought i was making them do something they really, really didn't want to do, they were stressed and overwhelmed. We got ice cream on the way home to reward ourselves. Since then it's our pact - get shoe shopping done and get out of there!

It's one of my favourite memories because it was when something snapped into place that changed my perspective on the situation, and i believe it changed their perspective too. We have so many bad days. But then we have good ones too. I like that, walk alongside them.

I struggle to hold the line on this. At 8, what worked really well was a mild, consistent screen fine - he’d have to wait 5 minutes longer for screen time to start (easy for me to implement)
I’d start by challenging the tone/language or model the appropriate words/or say “shall we begin again?” And if he didn’t back down I’d say “do you want to lose 5 minutes screen time?”
And only if he dug in would he actually get that. And if he kept going I’d say “ do you want to make that ten?”

So he had plenty of off ramps and the punishment didn’t escalate beyond what I could manage. I also allowed him to earn the time back by doing chores when he cooled down.

I only once got to 15 minutes and then uncovered a much bigger issue underlying the strop.

He’s 15 now and it’s much harder with hormones raging, exam stress, etc. Sometimes it’s more important to get to the crux of the issue than worry about the words; sometimes I’ll trigger a meltdown or shutdown but it’s also a significant part of my job to raise him not to be abusive or rude. It’s very tricky to navigate.

Part of what @Adhdmumofadhdtwins did there was to express the children’s emotions appropriately for them.

When children explode with ‘Fine, Stupid!’, they are expressing complicated emotions in a simplistic way.

It’s shorthand for something along the lines of ‘I really don’t want to, I’ve had a shit day, I want to have icecream hot chocolate and marshmallows all in the same bowl without the icecream melting and a hug without anyone touching me and I really wish I hadnt got out of bed this morning but I’m going to do what you said anyway, because your my mum and I have to and I know you mean well and aren’t doing it to annoy me but I’m still annoyed!’

In an office that would translate as ‘Honestly, sometimes I don’t think I’m paid enough for this! Roll on next week!’.

When your DC huffs and adds a few rude words, tell them you know they are frustrated, and they’ll feel better after a good night’s sleep, and it would be great if they could say the rude bit where you don’t have to hear it so your feelings aren’t hurt.

We also do a useful ‘don’t say that one in front of your grandma or a teacher’ as he didn’t pick up easily on what was and wasn’t acceptable.

Kids are allowed emotions too. When mine called me an ugly old troll, he was saying how very upset he was at not being allowed to do whatever it was. ‘Worse than the Dursleys’ was a low point.

He’s lovely now. Hasn’t called anyone an ugly old troll since he was about 8.

Op one thing that jumps out at me - is there any truth in your other son winding up your son with adhd? Because mine can be very, very sneaky when winding each other up and it's a huge trigger for them - if i find one of mine has deliberately wound the other up, they get sanctioned or asked to apologise too.

Has your son got somewhere he can go that his brother can't? Such as his bedroom? So if he needs space from his brother he can go there and be guaranteed his brother won't be allowed to follow?

With my adhd, when I'm wound up i can be outwardly ok, I'm coping, then suddenly I'm not coping and i get a searing hot spike of absolute rage, and if I'm not very very careful I'll say or do something i will regret. I'll be very sorry later, but by then it's too late - when that rage hits its pretty much impossible not to react, especially if you're 8 years old with adhd and have not yet learned, or don't have the ability to control yourself.

Then the anger goes away like the tide going out, and you are stranded there having to face up to what you did or said while in meltdown which can cause really strong feelings of shame and embarrassment. I used to internalise all this shame which led to zero self esteem. Those feelings can also make it very hard to come down from the meltdown because you genuinely don't know how to row back and you don't know if the person you were angry at will accept your apology. So even if I'm still angry with the dc, if they come to me to apologise, i always accept it and we hug it out. I may not be ready to talk about it yet, but I'll never turn them away if they're apologising or need my help to calm down. I'm on their side.

I won't usually punish what was said or done in meltdown because by that point, they're genuinely not in control of themselves. We will have a talk about it later when they're calm and I'll ask them to apologise. My focus is usually on trying to identify the trigger and asking them what else they could do in that moment - such as walking away, or asking for help. They're getting so much better. I also make a point of praising when i notice that they have dealt with something like that well and they've avoided a meltdown.

I call mine out every time they do it. I tell them what the expectations are. I don't appreciate being spoken to like that/please don't talk to me like that/don't you ever talk to me like that/this is completely unacceptable/ I heard that, mums hear everything, depending on what they have said. Even for teen it's consequences. Sometimes they can't be reasoned with, have got too worked up and have to calm down, I will go back to them and we have a chat about it and a hug after a genuine sorry is offered up. I'm always firm and nothing is ignored. DH was told by the DCs that mum is the boss and he is second in command. He can be a little bit soft with them, inconsistent with the firmness. I find with kids if you give an inch....

No.

It's educated parenting from someone raising a child with ADHD and developmental trauma. I also have ADHD.

I have worked with teams of professionals. I'm not inventing parenting strategies.

Authoritarian parenting for ND kids is not going to work. It will just create a negative environment for everyone.

We have a 12 year old who has ADHD and is similar.
We do a mixture of:
ignore entirely, if he just shouts something rude randomly.
suggest we can't understand him, if he wants something "Give me a drink!" "sorry?" "Can I have a drink please?".
tell him he doesn't get to say that e.g. "you can't be in here, you're too annoying" "sorry it's my house, you can't say that". We try not to repeat the last one so much.

There is no point, with many children with ADHD, in calling them out every time as the act of exciting you into reaction is very stimulating for them, so they will keep doing it.

This is an ADHD thing, apparently, if you haven't yet done so you should definitely listen to the ADHD Guys podcast, they go into this and it can be a thing for ADHD adults e.g. voice too loud, not quite getting the tone right for the conversation.

Correct. And that’s why schools are teeming with children who are rude and disrespectful to teachers. I far from a strict mum but I will not have rudeness end of. The kids aren’t scared of me they aren’t repressed they know there’s a way to talk and ask and that a basic boundary in our home is decent manners.

No, I never did, and my kids are mid 40’s now, and they still haven’t. 🤷‍♀️

Thank you this is all really helpful. I definitely need to do more praise of anything positive, he can be so kind - for example even though he thinks his brother is the most annoying person, clearly, he does let him sit with him and his friends at breakfast and after school club wraparound, which must be annoying as he’s 3 years younger. So I do think he’s kind when it really matters but it’s so hard when he is deliberately winding his brother up at home (and he’s definitely the antagonist 95% of the time, a PP asked if I was sure - I’ve listened closely!).

But I need to praise every little thing. Shoes on great. Clothes on, great, ate your breakfast, amazing. It probably doesn’t come naturally to me!

I read the Explosive child and didn’t find it all that helpful, and 123 also which I liked but I think would be hard to implement, I do count sometimes though and it helps!

i will be listening to this podcast thank you!

I think it’s definitely an ADHD thing, as my DH is also ADHD and I think of him as being quite demand avoidant sometimes, for the sake of it. He hates the idea of being told what to do!

I don’t tell off for things like “get me a drink”, just correct/ask him to try again. It’s more the clear attitude and nastiness that I can’t just gently let go.

This is good advice.
You are right it does become a vicious cycle.
Mine is younger than yours OP, but i've had issues and there are definantly more to come.

My one likes the attention which I was told in a parent workshop, that any attention is attention and if you give it especially when they play up, they play on that further.

This narrative is one that ADHD Dude uses as well (I'm not sure if it has another name @Scootsville but we have site membership, which includes live office hours - I should see if I can get a referral discount as I've mentioned it to so many people!)
We do not currently use the way he speaks to us as an "expectation" as it isn't as big a deal as the aggression or food issues (which are more around bingeing on sweets and taking things that are supposed to be for dinner), but it has made a difference and we are moving slowly forward, with many steps back unfortunately.

I use natural consequences wherever I can but regardless of ND, some behaviour can’t be accepted. But nothing has worked hence me asking on here for help. We are low demand as much as possible in the way we frame requests, leave him to get on with things as much as possible, choices, but the reality of life with an 8 year old is that there will be a lot of requests in every day life! Like every child he has things he has to do to attend school and hobbies (ie basic tasks).