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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be getting scared to take my 3.5 year old out anywhere because of his behaviour?

108 replies

Whynomore · 06/05/2024 18:59

I know some people will read the title and want to say I’m the embodiment of all that’s wrong with parents today but hear me out first.

DS is 3.5, he has a 7 month old sibling. His behaviour has become so defiant and unpredictable that I’m getting to the point where I am anxious about going to places with him. Examples from today are repeatedly screaming NO at me, refusing to get off a bouncy castle (that was fun) insisting we have to go THIS way, refusing to come with me when leaving the park, stalking another child for a toy and refusing to come with me.

Other times he’s fine.

I have obviously tried to address these problems and I’ve read books and followed parenting experts on Instagram and so on. I’ve ensured we’re not hungry or thirsty, diet is really good, minimal screen time and nothing inappropriate. I’m a bit stumped really.

Is it the age? I hate to say it but I’m not massively enjoying him at the moment and it’s making me irritable which I’m aware doesn’t help but being spoken to like shit really does start to get to you after a while.

OP posts:
justasking111 · 07/05/2024 00:32

Get some reins. They're easier to catch and keep safe

thirtyseven37 · 07/05/2024 00:34

Whynomore · 06/05/2024 21:17

Thank you @Phineyj . I am sure there’s some useful stuff in how to talk but I just feel a lot of it is a bit beyond ds at the moment, if he’s really worked up he just can’t really take anything on. I lost my temper with him today which is the absolute worst thing you can do and I did apologise, feel horrible now.

You are the adult. Behave like the adult. You can't loose your temper with him.

thirtyseven37 · 07/05/2024 00:35

BlackeyedSusan · 06/05/2024 21:43

Take notes: you'll either find a pattern and work out strategies or have shit loads of evidence for diagnosis if he doesn't improve. (Lead up, triggers, behaviour, duration, what else happened earlier in the day, sensory environment, level of activity) it might happen on busy days, when he's not slept well, windy days, when he's been out more than 20 minutes smelly or bright or loud environments or if he's not had enough stimulation...

Parenting course: either you learn tips or you can say I did X course, used y strategies and he still has a problem.

Think back now to babyhood for behaviour. Did he wave, asked to be picked up, point? Slow/fast development?

Read up on ADHD and autism in small kids. Anything familiar?

Try well fed, well exercised, calming occupational therapy, not too hot /cold /over/under stimulated.

Hopefully he will grow out of it.

Can people stop automatically jumping to 'autism' and 'ADHD' please?

Whynomore · 07/05/2024 01:31

@Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong it sounds like you’re a preschool teacher? But children do behave very differently for other adults, I’m not totally sure it’s as straightforward as ‘we expect this so it happens.’ DS isn’t awful all the time and I’m not doing anything notably different when he’s difficult to when he isn’t.

@thirtyseven37 i think I behaved in a way that was human, ie flawed. I had had hours of whining, arguing, defiance and all very much for its own sake if you like. I am an adult but I’m a human adult and I am flawed and I do let the mask slip every now and again.

@justasking111 reins are really handy in busy places where you might lose your child but they aren’t designed for and (imo) shouldn’t be used for dragging a child around. That’s dangerous and it’s also a challenge. They are also really not suitable
beyond a certain age and DS is pushing that age I’d say.

OP posts:
Whynomore · 07/05/2024 01:42

@Yourethebeerthief i am sure I could be more consistent but it is extremely difficult finding a consequence that they a)understand and b) care about.

@costahotchocolatesaremyweakness see yes, I follow Big Little Feelings or used to. I tried all their hacks which sound so lovely but they just don’t bloody well work 😂

I am not perfect, I know. I’m not a machine who always spouts out the right phrases. I’m sure there are things I could do better. But with very bad back, there is absolutely no way I can as they suggest ‘hold the boundary’ pluck a resistant child from a climbing frame and carry him out whilst also pushing a baby in a pram and all the baby paraphernalia. I couldn’t have done so when pregnant either. And ‘he’s allowed to be upset’ of course he is but when he communicates that upset by screaming, writhing, twisting, I can’t physically hold onto him with only one arm.

So if the choice is between a physical fight or a quick ‘ok ds bye!’ Then yes I go for the latter. All wrong according to them but I’ve yet to meet a parenting expert who is in the real world where kids are fast adults are old and there’s more than one child!

OP posts:
MariaVT65 · 07/05/2024 01:45

Tospyornottospy · 06/05/2024 19:57

Also I’m not trying to be negative but I would maybe ask for some support re the understanding and potty training etc as 3.5 is quite late for a NT child

It’s not, especially not for boys. Mine is the same. Also getting on better at nursery with it than home, which is apparently normal. Anything up to 4 is considered ‘normal’. I’ve spoken about it with several HVs and none of them have the slightest concern.

Op i feel for you. My boy is 3.5 and not quite as bad as that when we are out, but he can be a bloody terror with me at home (more than anyone else). He lives to wind me up/test boundaries. I also have a baby and i think part of it is not giving him as much as attention as i’d like, so he does things to get a reaction out of me. Bribery doesn’t always work either. He thinks the naughty step is a game. I’ve also read that consequences and rewards should be immmediate when possible. He doesn’t care if i say ‘get dressed now otherwise we can’t have any hey duggee after nursery’.

Whynomore · 07/05/2024 01:54

Interestingly we’re the other way around: nursery is terrible. He had so many accidents last week I had to buy new trousers and pants, it must have been seven + a day. A major problem is he won’t say he needs a wee or poo and nor does he initiate going himself so it’s reliant on taking him at regular intervals. I’m aware that’s a problem because without being taken to the toilet he just wets and soils but I don’t really know what to do about it.

OP posts:
Yourethebeerthief · 07/05/2024 06:35

@Whynomore

i am sure I could be more consistent but it is extremely difficult finding a consequence that they a)understand and b) care about

You don't need to find the consequences, they're right in front of you. He wanted to stay on the bouncy castle- remove him. He didn't listen to you about it being time to go home- take him home.

He's 3 and a half so there will be things he likes and wants all day long, and so there will be potential consequences all day long.

Some recent examples from my toddler...
Cycled beyond an agreed boundary out of sight from me- ran after him, bike removed for 5 minutes. He didn't do it again. On another day he did do it again so he was told that as he wasn't able to play safely we have to go home. Since then he has never cycled out of my sight.

Had a tantrum in the shop, fell to the ground and wouldn't get up. Triggered by tiredness so lesson learnt by me. Bodily lifted him and took him home.

Threw a toy. Toy removed and put out of sight where he could still see it for ten minutes. Didn't throw it again when it was returned as he knew it would be removed again.

Act in the moment as the consequence is ready made for you by whatever they're doing at the time. It doesn't matter if you think he's laughing about it and so on, still follow through every single time.

Yourethebeerthief · 07/05/2024 06:36

@Whynomore

And at 3 and a half, he does understand.

Whynomore · 07/05/2024 07:00

He really doesn’t care. He hasn’t thrown any toys by the way.

OP posts:
Yourethebeerthief · 07/05/2024 07:12

Whynomore · 07/05/2024 07:00

He really doesn’t care. He hasn’t thrown any toys by the way.

It's an example. I don't know the exact list of your son's behaviours. This was an example of something my son did once.

In your OP you say that you are scared to go anywhere with your son because of his behaviours. I don't feel this way with my son at all despite the fact that he is also capable of being a stubborn, cheeky little toddler like any of them.

You're the adult. Follow through with consequences and show him who's in charge.

I'm not sure what you're looking for from this thread? Do you want people to say it's normal to feel scared going out with a 3 year old and you should just stay at home?

justasking111 · 07/05/2024 09:31

Whynomore · 07/05/2024 01:31

@Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong it sounds like you’re a preschool teacher? But children do behave very differently for other adults, I’m not totally sure it’s as straightforward as ‘we expect this so it happens.’ DS isn’t awful all the time and I’m not doing anything notably different when he’s difficult to when he isn’t.

@thirtyseven37 i think I behaved in a way that was human, ie flawed. I had had hours of whining, arguing, defiance and all very much for its own sake if you like. I am an adult but I’m a human adult and I am flawed and I do let the mask slip every now and again.

@justasking111 reins are really handy in busy places where you might lose your child but they aren’t designed for and (imo) shouldn’t be used for dragging a child around. That’s dangerous and it’s also a challenge. They are also really not suitable
beyond a certain age and DS is pushing that age I’d say.

I wasn't suggesting dragging a child around. I'd say a child who runs into a dangerous situation is more at risk than the inconvenience of reins

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 07/05/2024 10:26

@Whynomore yes I'm a pre school teacher and you are right they always behave differently. They behave well and it just falls apart when they are in their safe space with Mum, especially if they are working really hard on regulating emotions all morning. It's very normal BUT it does counteract the 'they don't understand' argument. If they understand directions and consequences in one environment they understand everywhere. So at least you can figure out if he has genuine issues understanding or is just taking the piss. If its the latter you can feel no guilt about being really tough on him because he needs to learn. Start in smaller manageable situations but always an immediate consequence, removal of a toy, back in the buggy etc. The dragging away at a playground is the most difficult one so work on other things so he knows there will be consequences to ignoring you and eventually you will be able to manage.

I trained in early years after DS1 was beyond this stage and I wish I could go back in time. He was so difficult and I lacked confidence, I was always afraid of judgment because he was always the one doing something crazy and I felt everyone looked at me trying and failing to handle him. I remember Dh telling me to grow a thicker skin but I found it so difficult. I totally understand the feeling of being afraid to go out, it was so stressful all the time never knowing when it would kick off.

mumonthehill · 07/05/2024 10:32

You are tired and overwhelmed this is evident. You need some support when out and about so you can focus on addressing these behaviours but know your baby is ok. So do some trips with a friend or family member where if ds plays up you can focus on him completely. He is testing you, they do but you have to feel strong enough to deal with them. It will pass.

Tooshytoshine · 07/05/2024 10:43

My son was trying at that s age and I didn't have a 7 month old.

I would make his world smaller and structure unbreakable routines. It will be boring but you need to conserve energy and protect your MH.

He sounds big for his age like my son was - it made it harder as picking him up like a surfboard was more like picking up an incredibly unreasonable chimp.

These are things I did:

Find out local play groups that have a set finishing time. Get to the playgroup at the start so he sees the build up of children coming in and it isn't full. If he misbehaves three times then remove him. Each time give him a chance and tell him the consequence - if he can't share/do what mummy asks then he can not stay. Whenever he leaves (even if under duress) he gets a treat or reward for leaving.

Go on walks in the park where you are looking for specific items to keep him focussed: a purple flower, the biggest leaf, counting birds so he has your attention but it is positive attention.

No trips over two hours. Nothing over stimulating.

Meals were the same in the midweek - picnic plate for lunch then set meals each day at tea time. No opportunity for him to take control.

Say firmly you don't like how he speaks to you and stay calm then model how he could say it. If he is shouting wait for him to stop and hug him when he calms down.

Stay in, get cosy, read books or watch some telly. Bake or make foods like crispy cakes or pancakes. Pasta pictures or necklaces.

I feel your pain and there were days when it all felt very hard and my parenting was less than ideal. If it is any consolation my son is a remarkably lovely teenager now so the toddler years weren't a precursor to a hard puberty!

Temushopper · 07/05/2024 10:55

thirtyseven37 · 07/05/2024 00:34

You are the adult. Behave like the adult. You can't loose your temper with him.

Of course you ideally shouldn’t but virtually all parents will sometimes. I’m unclear why it’s the end of the world for them to be aware on occasion that they have really annoyed you and it’s resulted in you shouting. I found as I did it so rarely that the odd occasion I did it was actually super effective in getting the kids to stop whatever it was they were doing and to do whatever it was we needed them to.

justasking111 · 07/05/2024 12:48

Whynomore · 07/05/2024 01:54

Interestingly we’re the other way around: nursery is terrible. He had so many accidents last week I had to buy new trousers and pants, it must have been seven + a day. A major problem is he won’t say he needs a wee or poo and nor does he initiate going himself so it’s reliant on taking him at regular intervals. I’m aware that’s a problem because without being taken to the toilet he just wets and soils but I don’t really know what to do about it.

Then keep him in nappies, that's plain daft and extra work for the nursery

CaptainCarrot · 07/05/2024 13:02

Have you posted about your son before? Not that it matters, of course. And if you haven't, you are far from the only parent who has posted about a 3-year-old who is exhibiting challenging behaviour!

I would look at the basics: sleep, food, fresh air, exercise. So many tantrums can be attributed to tiredness, hunger, pent-up energy. Not that those things are the only reasons, just that they would be the first things I'd look at.

Also, how is his communication in general? You mentioned that he doesn't seem to understand discussions about emotions. Does he also struggle with other types of comprehension? His behaviour might be linked to frustration at an inability to understand and/or express himself.

LlynTegid · 07/05/2024 13:05

I hope that some of the suggestions work for you at what is difficult and frustrating.

When you read of all the lazy parents who do nothing to instil reasonable behaviour in their children, it is good to read of someone who does want a well behaved child.

NeverHeardOfSuchTosh · 07/05/2024 13:09

Get him on some reins - he'll hate it, but he won't be able to run off so will be safe.

TELL him what is going to happen - we're going there, we're doing that, you're getting your shoes on, etc. No choices, no gentle parenting. Be consistent. Punishments such as no tv/no sweets etc. Praise him when he's been good or has done what's expected of him.

Thegoodbadandugly · 07/05/2024 13:16

Whynomore · 06/05/2024 18:59

I know some people will read the title and want to say I’m the embodiment of all that’s wrong with parents today but hear me out first.

DS is 3.5, he has a 7 month old sibling. His behaviour has become so defiant and unpredictable that I’m getting to the point where I am anxious about going to places with him. Examples from today are repeatedly screaming NO at me, refusing to get off a bouncy castle (that was fun) insisting we have to go THIS way, refusing to come with me when leaving the park, stalking another child for a toy and refusing to come with me.

Other times he’s fine.

I have obviously tried to address these problems and I’ve read books and followed parenting experts on Instagram and so on. I’ve ensured we’re not hungry or thirsty, diet is really good, minimal screen time and nothing inappropriate. I’m a bit stumped really.

Is it the age? I hate to say it but I’m not massively enjoying him at the moment and it’s making me irritable which I’m aware doesn’t help but being spoken to like shit really does start to get to you after a while.

Do you give him a few warnings say for instance ok we are leaving in 10 mins, then we are leaving in 5 mins, then we are leaving in two mins?

ControlShiftDelete · 07/05/2024 13:34

Does he go nursery? Mine was very difficult and strong willed and honestly I went out when he was in nursery. I appreciate people work etc but at age 3.5 you and with a 7 month old I'm assuming you are on maternity leave? Stay home if he stresses you outside on weekends and go out when he is in nursery during weekdays. He will get his fresh air from nursery and honestly it's not the end of the world if he isn't out and about and isn't having the typical ''making memories' instagram lifestyle.

I used to stress myself when ds wasn't cooperating in cafes or out and about and stopped taking him with me. Honestly it's not worth him being miserable and me being stressed. Fast forward to age 5, he cooperates, sits and follows instructions but still can be whingy and whiney but nowhere near as bad as age 3 and I don't think I've damaged him for not taking him with me.

Yellowhammer09 · 07/05/2024 13:37

Sounds like you've got a threenager! It's hard work, I'll give you that, hopefully by the time he's four he'll have chilled out a bit.

Good luck!

BertieBotts · 07/05/2024 14:21

Would echo saying he sounds like my eldest who has ADHD and my middle one who is on a waiting list for some kind of diagnosis (ASD/ADHD probably) now at 5.5. If you have any suspicions here it's worth asking your health visitor, GP etc as the waiting lists can be horrendous. It might be he doesn't meet any threshold for referral just now but it can't hurt to ask.

In the meantime:

Big Little Feelings and anything from instagram etc - just forget it - none of these go into the right amount of detail and they oversimplify to the point nothing is helpful. Actually, TheOTButterfly on instagram is occasionally brilliant/spot on. But in general, instagram is totally useless for parenting advice. Avoid at all costs. Just makes you feel shit. Stick to podcasts and books - the longer format is more useful IME.

When Your Kids Push Your Buttons is on kindle for 99p at the moment - this is a really good helpful book, it helped me separate some of my emotions from my eldest's behaviour.

I also like How To Talk BUT with a caveat:

Mona Delahooke or Dan Siegel or Zones of Regulation or Conscious Discipline (Becky A Bailey) - any of these which describe the different emotional states are the missing key piece of info. Most the How To Talk stuff, and a lot of general parenting tips, tricks or advice are designed for when children are struggling slightly - the level of "stress brain" you tend to encounter when something underlying is really bothering them is another level, and none of these tips will work. If you think of the difference between a child being a general child and being a bit stubborn and self-centred and over-emotional in a totally normal age appropriate way, vs a child who really needs a nap or is "hangry" then you know, absolutely no sense or trick or anything will get through to them until they get that sleep/food/etc that they need.

Some children are just operating at this level a lot of the time, with no obvious cause, and it is exhausting, both for them and for you.

So it helps IME to recognise when they are just being a kid and so the standard tips and tricks might be useful, and when they are actually overwhelmed and in a stress state, in which case they will be as good as a chocolate teapot. (overwhelmed might not mean crying and tantrumming - it can mean stuff like manic laughing, "hyper" or silly behaviour, being deliberately destructive, arguing/defiance over everything, rudeness towards you, making unreasonable demands, trying to control others, winding people up on purpose - and you just sort of have that spidey sense of dread that challenging them is definitely going to lead to an explosion).

The only real thing to do in that moment is to keep everyone safe (which might mean you sit down and hold him on your lap facing away from you), de-escalate, which might mean moving all three of you to the side or a quiet corner in order to contain any explosion, and focus on body language not words - if you're not needing to restrain him, get down to his level, take some deep breaths (ideally he will instinctively copy you, don't ask him to), speak slowly and softly, don't demand, explain, reason, admonish or plead. Try to reflect what you think is going on for him so that he sees that you see/understand him. e.g. the "Validate feelings" stuff from How To Talk can be good for this. Also Janet Lansbury has some great things about "I won't let you [hurt your brother]". There's not a lot of teaching going on in this moment when they are so overwhelmed which caused the behaviour in the first place, just reiterating the boundary and trying to cool down. Some children are then receptive to a kind of teaching/learning conversation and/or compromise/problem solving conversation after they have calmed down, whereas some are just exhausted at this point and won't be open to it. In which case, don't worry - there are proactive ways to teach rules, skills and behavioural expectations too. It's not always about what you do in the moment.

There is a good course on Coursera (free) called The ABCs of Everyday Parenting. This is useful because it's a very positive approach, which is much more successful with children with challenging behaviour compared to an approach based on punishing what you don't like, but it's much more targeted and specific, so although it includes very basic-sounding aspects you're probably already using like praise and reward charts, I think it's helpful in getting those techniques to actually be effective where they maybe currently are not.

I can add more but this is really long so I won't - hopefully some of it is helpful.

BertieBotts · 07/05/2024 14:25

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