Is your household contributing net tax ?

[Pingufireengine]

Following on from the awful disabled people are a drain on society threads...

For those that have children, have you considered this?

Roughly 55-60% of all households aren't net contributors to tax.

That's not to say the households that don't make a net contribution are in receipt of benefits.

Having children entails the following:

(This is per child)

Maternity care on NHS/midwifes,
Birth/delivery £3000-10000,
Post Delivery Care,
Health Visitors,
Statutory Maternity Leave,
Free prescriptions during pregnancy and after birth for 1 year,
Child gets free eye tests, glasses, prescriptions, dentist until 16/18
Child benefit until 16-20
Free nursery hours £2000-7000 per
Free School Milk £30-40
Free school meals: £400-500
School is £7,690 per
Sixth form/college/higher education £4,843

Student loans for university £30,000-50,000+

Yes the loans are paid back, but the initial offset is footed by taxpayers. And around 27% of full-time undergraduates starting in 2022/23 will repay them in full. They forecast that after the 2022 reforms this would increase to 61% among new students from 2023/24.

So instead of looking to blame those who are disabled for being a drain, look elsewhere, and better yet, instead of the disabled, pensioners, the working poor...we should look towards those are govern us, avoid tax.

The UK pension is the lowest in Europe, our wages are low and have stagnanted, working rights and conditions have eroded.

The UK looks asset rich, but it's only a small number who are generating huge wealth for themselves. There are parts of the UK poorer than the poorest parts of Poland. In fact, Poland is predicted to be wealthier per person than the UK in just a few years.

Maternity care is awful, the NHS is broken and on its knees, social care is non existent.

We've had austerity for 14 years, then Brexit, then COVID. Our country is in desperate need of investment into our creeking infrastructure.

Old people don’t matter. They’re a drain on society. Once they’ve outlived their usefulness they should just be put down. 🙄

This would be more helpful if we could also see what has happened to the income distribution over the same period.

So if the top earners are also earning a lot more (in relative terms) then it would mean something different to if they were earning the same or even less.

The wages of high earners have risen by a lot more than the wages of middle and low earners.

Exactly this. Without bankers the shop worker would have no shelves or food to put on them 😂

No one is carrying the economy or society on their own.

Is your argument that other benefits should be uprated more, or that pensions should be uprated less? I think other benefits should be uprated more.

If you want to dismantle the welfare state still further, that is your look out, but I don't support the removal of the state pension for current pensioners or future pensioners.

@Pollipops1 ' Private pensions are crap for most these days. I’m lucky to have a government one but it used to be amazing, unfortunately the scheme changed whilst I was at uni. I don’t think younger people are going to have better private pensions so therefore it’s ok to move out state pensions.'

What you don't seem to realise is that many baby boomers have no pension other than the state pension. Nothing at all. The 'gold-plated' pension is a myth for the majority of boomers.

Most companies didn't provide a pension. Company pension contributions weren't obligatory until 2018, so many smaller employers paid nothing at all. So those starting work today, contributing even 5% + 3% employer+ tax relief will be hugely better off.

If we're going to go down this road, how about the billions that smokers cost the NHS?

I’m childfree and likely to remain that way unless I choose to go down the adoption route. I’m generally in good health and don’t use many nhs services, no regular prescriptions or appointments etc so I am pretty sure I pay far more in tax than I get back, although obviously that could change. I don’t mind as I am happy to live in a country with free healthcare/ education etc and with a robust welfare state. I would be happy for my tax to increase if it meant improving the NHS, education system or improving benefits for those who need them but I feel politicians are generally corrupt and don’t like knowing public taxes fund things like fraudulent MP expenses, military expenditure, bank bailouts, dodgy contracts and fracking.

I don't really understand your list of costs.
What about healthcare usage, road usage, waste usage a hundred other publicly funded things?

Increase wages then - increasing the incentive to work.

Giving everyone a wodge of cash (universal basic income) reduces the incentive to work.

I can't see how that basic income could possibly be set high enough for people unable to work so benefits would need administering as well - not saving on administration.

I don't have children and we're net contributors. I have no issue with those who need resources having them when they need them, or need the support to access them.

I agree with what you say, but as a previous small business owner in various different trades it is easy to say increase wages.

There needs to be a better way to differentiate between large and small businesses. When the minimum wage goes up the smaller businesses struggle to put prices up to compensate.

The large companies and multi nationals can raise the revenue via volume sales.

Would now be a good time to look again at employer NI contribution ( lower it for less than ten employees and increase it for over 50 employees.)

I often wonder with the likes of Amazon where the UK is a small part of their overall business. If the government said you must pay say full tax rate would they say ok we will not trade in the UK as they know the government would back down due to the amount of people they employ. I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of their lobby group meetings.

My household, 2 full time working adults, probably pay in excess of £8K tax/NI/Ctax and god knows how much VAT plus all the hidden extras with fuel, road tax, tax on interest, tax on insurance etc.

Out of that, I get my bins collected once a fortnight and have one a street light about 50 meters away.

I also have the knowledge that should I ever need the NHS, Police, Fire Service they are there and our military services and protecting us behind the scenes.

That’s not really the point. If those contributions were originally invested at 5% they would easily pay your pension now. (I’ve done the calculations!). They were in fact invested in hospitals and roads etc, which built the infrastructure which has given us a wealthier society. So indeed you have ‘paid for it’.

I completely agree

My point is that people who are rich (like a banker) say that they have worked really hard and deserve every penny and look down upon people who have also 'worked really hard' (like a coal miner / road digger).

Society has definitely become less equitable over the past 14 years - the very richest are far wealthier than before, and the poorest are poorer.

However, taxation is very complicated, and there's more to it than income tax rates. I do think rich folk should pay a higher proportion of their wealth, and that loopholes ought to be closed that allow them to pay minimal tax. I also think we as a society need to consider what we can afford when it comes to pensioners and the disabled - the trajectory we are on currently is unaffordable, with an ageing but unhealthy population.

The whole picture needs considering holistically - education, lifestyle, healthcare are all inextricably linked to the wealth and the economy. It needs real long-term focus and cross-party commitment, which is unlikely in the current political climate of one-upmanship.

The people contributing net tax aren't all richer people swanning about in expensive cars with huge houses. Many of them are everyday working people who don't have children or health needs (presently) and who don't happen to be the victims of crime. I lived in a houseshare with 4 other full time working professionals, all earning between 23 and 35k, none of us had children and as far as I know none of us had major health concerns that required treatment. There are many people like this supporting the economy,. Do you think that's the ideal, for no one to have children or health needs? That's not how society works, people have to come from somewhere and the majority of people were children once 😂
The people avoiding tax are the problem.

How thing works and how things should work are an essential part of any discussion.

Military expenditure is essential. Wars are not a thing of the past.

We cannot afford to interfere with the infrastructure of other countries when our own has fallen apart.

That’s a bit of a generalisation. Believing you work hard and deserve your salary is different to looking down on people who earn less. My own experience with high earners, is that they don’t give too much thought to what other people earn. They are more interested in improving their position.

Exactly! Those rich people on state pension will pay back all their pension back in tax anyway. Taking away their pension will just reduce their tax liability by the same amount

We are, and i am ok with that. I'd be ok with paying more too.

But the wage gap is a big issue in the uk. Too much of our wealth as a nation is flowing to a small minority. We over value capital ownership.

Exactly! Those rich people on state pension will pay back all their pension back in tax anyway. Taking away their pension will just reduce their tax liability by the same amount

This is very poor understanding of tax! If you reduce their pension it will reduce their tax liability by at most 45%, unless they go into the personal allowance clawback.