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Original poster

to ask your thoughts on this? Fatal shooting during burglary

1000 replies

itsjustataste · 03/05/2024 23:34

Happened near me very recently and our community seems very torn with lots of people slinging insults at both sides. Lots of people shouting about playing stupid games, win stupid prizes etc... whilst others calling the shooter a murderer.

I find it very sad that someone so young has ultimately lost their life and has got mixed up in this sort of thing.

BUT that being said, I don't have any ill feeling toward the farmer either and cannot say that I wouldn't do the same if faced with 3 people breaking into my home, especially if I had my children in the house.

The other 2 suspects arrested for aggravated burglary meaning a weapon was involved and there had been a break in at the same home the night previously too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-68942085.amp

Marcus Smith

Whaley Bridge: Farmer held over burglary shooting death

The man is being detained on suspicion of murder following the shooting, the BBC understands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-68942085.amp

OP posts:
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14
DanielGault · 04/05/2024 08:14

@RawBloomers thank you. I'm just thinking out loud here but isn't it rather an outdated concept given all the tech that's available? As in, it's just the usual way of doing things? Sorry for being thick, but it seems like a label for normal behaviour (albeit for drug dealing purposes).

JaneyBlueEyes · 04/05/2024 08:14

My instinct is to be firmly on the farmers side here.

Such an awful situation.

Beautiful3 · 04/05/2024 08:14

They had weapons! I fully support the farmer. We should all be allowed guns to defend ourselves with.

newyorkhotel · 04/05/2024 08:14

HellonHeels · 03/05/2024 23:51

Three intruders, with weapons?

I think the farmer was entirely justified in defending himself and his family and home.

Absolutely, if you break into someone's house and threaten their life then you get what you deserve if they fight back and you die. It's actually pretty easy not to break into someone's house with a weapon - I've managed not to do it my entire life. Choices have consequences.

quickchange1 · 04/05/2024 08:14

This link (from 2021 deceased teen was 16) may offer context to the teens and their background.

Context

pinkstripeycat · 04/05/2024 08:15

Anotherparkingthread · 03/05/2024 23:55

Yes and the article says they believe it was a targeted attacked. Very distressing.

I live in an area where recently crime has surged. It's so bad. 3 armed men broke into my neighbours house recently. I heard a strange noise at around 1.30am. I had stayed up late watching TV. A few minutes later the noise got louder so I woke my partner and we went out to see what it was. The window was wide open. The sound of us hanging around disturbed them and they fled. They had mopeds nearby. The poor girl is only very young around 25 and lives alone. She was absolutely tetrified. She said they came in her bedroom but didn't end up taking anything as they heard us show up and left.

So frightening, we need laws that let people defend themselves in their homes.

Show quote history

There are. The defence had to be reasonable and proportionate.

Icantrememberthename · 04/05/2024 08:15

Ponoka7 · 04/05/2024 08:12

@DanielGault it is called county lines because the crimes are committed in a county that the criminals don't reside in. Here in Liverpool teens are recruited to sell drugs North Wales, at festivals and other places. Other criminal activities would include farm/plant equipment and car theft. Teens/kids will also be used to move cash, weapons, drugs around. Before seeing it as an offence, the vulnerable young person wouldn't be seen as a victim. The offence for the dealer is one akin to modern day slavery.

Ah that is a better description than mine. Thanks.

OhmygodDont · 04/05/2024 08:15

Thing is regardless of what the thief’s were trying to steal they are still the ones breaking into someone’s home. They were in his house.

If this farmer is growing huge amount of weed would he really of reported an attempted break in the night before. You’d be drawing attention to your own grow.

Still even if he had weed, doesn’t give other people to be thief’s still.

Foggyfield · 04/05/2024 08:16

Ponoka7 · 04/05/2024 08:03

The teen's Mum is a Nurse and as said they are all working. His family apparently aren't scum, he was a potental thief, yes.
I believe in the right defend yourself, but we don't have enough information yet to decide if the farmer was right to get the gun, from were it needed to be safely stored and then shoot. Although the shooting did take place inside his property. I the US there has been people looking for help, delivery people etc and police, attending a burglary, shot dead. I know some really horrible, abusive men who have gun licences, so of course the circumstances need to be investigated.

Show quote history

You seem to have mistaken the word 'scum' to mean 'underclass'.

Some of the worst pieces of shit I've seen came from middle/working class homes.

Entitlement, violence and criminality makes you scum, doesn't matter whether your mother is a nurse or not.

Whatever the background details, these three men entered a family's home, where their children are, with bad intentions. Hardly popping in for a surprise cup of tea were they?

Even if it turns out the farmer is a breaking bad nutter with acres of weed (though I'd bet money that's just the estate gossip trying to vindicate the deceased) all that that means is one scumbag is dead, and the other is about to go to prison. Win win.

Ponoka7 · 04/05/2024 08:16

Letsgotitans · 04/05/2024 08:12

I appreciate what you're saying but the burglars did take weapons with them so they obviously were prepared to be violent. I don't think you can take weapons with you somewhere and claim you were never going to actually use them.

Show quote history

They could have been carrying crow bars, cutting tools etc. If they wasn't in the property, then it can be a general charge of 'going equipped'.

SnakesAndArrows · 04/05/2024 08:17

BabyRaindeer · 04/05/2024 08:05

Let's hope we have some Mumsnetters on the jury. I wouldn't convict him

And you are exactly why jury trials are dangerous. You know nothing (and neither do I), yet you’ve made up your mind already?

AliceMcK · 04/05/2024 08:17

IdaPrentice · 03/05/2024 23:41

Yes, especially as in a rural area, you're unlikely to get a quick response from police if there are armed burglars in your house. You're basically on your own.

It's a difficult one though. The punishment for burglary isn't the death penalty.

Maybe it should be.

If I had access to a gun I’d have gone after the bastards that burgled by 84 year of Nan TWICE! The police did fuck all and she was terrified, never recovered, I truly believed she preferred death to being put in that situation again. She was one of many elderly residents burgled on a regular basis. The badtards targeted elderly residents and even followed some home from collecting their pensions. It’s been 26 years but my blood still boils thinking of my terrified Nan and other elderly people who are targeted by this scum. None of them deserve to breathe while old people are dying of fright!

Sceptical123 · 04/05/2024 08:18

itsjustataste · 03/05/2024 23:48

I think it's sad when any young person wastes their life like this. I feel for the farm owner too knowing he's taken the life of a teenager as well, that must be hard never mind the circumstances. I honestly think if I knew I had a gun in my home, where my children were sleeping, I'd do the same if faced with 3 people likely carrying weapons themselves. I'd protect my children with anything in my means.

The lad was local to the property which makes it very difficult as there are family and friends of him locally who are grieving and now taking that out on the farm owner and also family and friends of the property owner on the other side. Very very messy situation.

Their grief is understandable, but really what did they expect the farmer to do? Stand back and watch quietly while burglars WITH WEAPONS took his belongings (again!)?

They had weapons with them to use. If they could have used them they would have. Fortunately for him he got in there first.

If the farmer hadn’t had a gun and tried to stop them stealing from him we’d be reading about some poor farmer being killed during yet another burglary to his property. It’s sad that it comes to it but it’s not surprising these ppl decide to fight back. Unfortunately for the burglars, farmers usually have ready access to guns. You’d think that would be common knowledge.

Flickersy · 04/05/2024 08:18

Although I am behind the principal of using lethal force to defend yourself, I am not going to pass any judgement until we have the facts. It's clearly a very complex and difficult situation and I don't think emotions running high will help.

Tony Martin springs to mind. On the face of it, it's a poor farmer defending himself and I do broadly sympathise. But when you realise he shot one of them in the back as they were leaving, that ceases to become defence and becomes vengeance, and so I can understand the conviction.

MsCheeryble · 04/05/2024 08:19

ClareBlue · 04/05/2024 00:36

The sanitised Court case will discuss reasonable force and if there was a real and immediate threat to life and expect a person who is faced by 3 armed intruders to make split decisions on how much force can be used. What it will not and can not do is portray how absolutely terrifying it is to have 3 armed men in your house at 1.30am. It's not terrifying for the 3 armed men who made a decision to do this. They are not even scared of the consequences of getting caught. The total fear of this happening to you and the experience will never come across in a Court case in 18 months time, it will all be words and mitigation. And those paying tribute to someone who makes a decision to arm themselves and break into an isolate house should be ashamed of themselves. They won't of course.

The law actually allows a lot of flexibility and fully allows for the fact that, in the terror of the moment, no-one is going to make a finely-balanced decision. It would certainly be recognised that someone defending his family from three armed young men has a lot of leeway. Provided that the evidence shows that the farmer didn't, for instance, shoot them in the back as they were leaving, I suspect the police may take this no further. Unfortunately that won't solve the problems with the burglars' idiot family and friends.

Icantrememberthename · 04/05/2024 08:21

DanielGault · 04/05/2024 08:14

@RawBloomers thank you. I'm just thinking out loud here but isn't it rather an outdated concept given all the tech that's available? As in, it's just the usual way of doing things? Sorry for being thick, but it seems like a label for normal behaviour (albeit for drug dealing purposes).

When I first encountered it, it was because it was a new phenomenon. Organised gangs starting to reach into rural areas in a way they hadn’t before.

Icantrememberthename · 04/05/2024 08:23

Foggyfield · 04/05/2024 08:16

You seem to have mistaken the word 'scum' to mean 'underclass'.

Some of the worst pieces of shit I've seen came from middle/working class homes.

Entitlement, violence and criminality makes you scum, doesn't matter whether your mother is a nurse or not.

Whatever the background details, these three men entered a family's home, where their children are, with bad intentions. Hardly popping in for a surprise cup of tea were they?

Even if it turns out the farmer is a breaking bad nutter with acres of weed (though I'd bet money that's just the estate gossip trying to vindicate the deceased) all that that means is one scumbag is dead, and the other is about to go to prison. Win win.

Show quote history

Yes. Indeed. A nurse local to a friend of mine recently head butted someone twice and kicked someone else’s head in while they were on the ground. They are no longer a nurse you’ll be pleased to know.

Letsgotitans · 04/05/2024 08:23

Ponoka7 · 04/05/2024 08:16

They could have been carrying crow bars, cutting tools etc. If they wasn't in the property, then it can be a general charge of 'going equipped'.

Show quote history

Oh right I didn't know of this charge. Either way I'm still in support of the farmer and hope the surviving burglars get imprisoned.

DanielGault · 04/05/2024 08:25

Icantrememberthename · 04/05/2024 08:21

When I first encountered it, it was because it was a new phenomenon. Organised gangs starting to reach into rural areas in a way they hadn’t before.

Show quote history

I'm not in the UK so I've only heard of it relatively recently and didn't get what it meant. In Ireland, we just call it 'drug dealing' 😂

Pollyannamex · 04/05/2024 08:25

100% on the side of the farmer protecting his property and family and have donated to the fundraiser for his legal fees.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/freethefarmer

pinkstripeycat · 04/05/2024 08:26

Icantrememberthename · 04/05/2024 07:09

That’s why I asked. Is there something in particular they are after. It just seems like going out to a farm is much more risky that stealing in a town or city where you can hide more easily.

But I just realised it’s probably not good to advertise what they are after so fine not to say. I was just curious so no need to be rude to me.

Show quote history

Why do people commit burglary? They don’t know what’s in a property until they break in. They take anything worth selling.

You’d be surprised at how many people keep a lot of jewellery and money in their homes.

willWillSmithsmith · 04/05/2024 08:27

Breaking into someone’s home for selfish gain is a despicable thing to do. Good people don’t do that.

AGlinnerOfHope · 04/05/2024 08:28

The people who are donating to the GoFundMe, will you regret it if he’s a weed farmer? Just wondering, as we don’t know either way.

MrsPinkCock · 04/05/2024 08:28

Potnoodlesarentantisocial · 04/05/2024 08:07

Poor farmer. He was protecting his family yet I bet you the community will be painting him as a villain now and the burglar will be seen as an angel.
Imagine if the farmer hadn't fired and got killed or injured by these three. The story could be totally different.

People should be allowed to defend themselves when their homes are broken in.

But people ARE already allowed to defend themselves when their homes are broken into.

They are allowed to use “reasonable force”. Reasonable force can even extend to fatally wounding an intruder in some circumstances.

What you can’t do is shoot someone in the back who is running away (Tony Martin). Or shoot someone on sight who isn’t posing a direct physical threat. Or shoot someone in retaliation for them breaking into your property. All of those would be murder, not self defence.

Pudmyboy · 04/05/2024 08:29

There are people who will say 'a life is worth more than possessions' ie shooting a burglar is worse than being burgled......but my argument is, how can you guarantee that it was just going to be a burglary? If someone is breaking into your house, unless they have an eye mask on, a stripy top and a large sack marked 'swag' you have no idea what their intentions are, plus situations can escalate in the heat of the moment. I have sympathy for the farmer.

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