Do you still think it's all about calories in vs calories out and fat people are not disciplined enough ?

[deebate]

I've been doing a lot of online research over the years around diet/ exercise and what's the answer. How can I keep fit and be healthy.

I've tried various things and I am generally a believer in calories in vs calories out. Which seems to be the favoured method on here.

If anyone complains they're struggling with losing weight, it must be because they're not counting everything etc.

In any case, I've now stumbled across a number of podcasts of different doctors and nutritionists in the field talking about gut microbes and sugar spikes etc and how actually it's really not just about calories at all.

What's the consensus on here about all this ?

Ive been on a diet on off for all my life, generally calories in v out has worked for me BUT I will say, sometimes I gain weight if I have sugar whether I stay in my calorie amount or not, chocolate, coffee with sugar doesn't matter I'll gain a lb, or not lose anything... I have to go very low sugar to lose weight

I think you are probably right there. However the difficulty is in getting to be the person in your first paragraph when you are already the person in your second paragraph .

A lot of MH medications list loss of appetite and anorexia as a side effect but if you take certain anti-psychotics and even anti depressants you can blow up like a balloon while eating half a bagel a day. I know because I literally couldn’t eat more than half a bagel a day (I’d be forced and had no body image issues it was all loss of appetite!) and still ended up three stone heavier. Then add in some prednisolone (still with the no appetite) because I was allergic to one of the antipsychotics and I got bigger again and still the AD and the reason I had to take it stole my appetite.

I ended up about 5 stone heavier than when I started the meds. I ate max an onion bagel a day for almost a year. It was very unhealthy and I was still getting fat. I lost half the weight stopping the meds because (surprise!) I was misdiagnosed but have been on steroids for most of my life now for something else and it doesn’t matter what I eat I’m fat.

i have tried CICO but even my dietician said the amount I’d have to cut to was unsustainable for life to lost the weight the meds have caused because exercise isn’t always possible.

its not as straightforward as CICO for a lot of people.

This is really just set up to shame fat people.

It’s about calories in vs calories out. That said, I have twin girls. One of them loves her food. She’s always hungry. She’s the best eater I have. She’s very lean. And you can see her muscles etc. she weighs more than her sister but she’s just so dense with muscle if that makes sense. Long limbs.

her sister on other hand is offered the same food and we eat at the same time, same dinners etc. if anything she eats a bit less as she is picky. we do the same amount of exercise. She’s slightly shorter. And she’s perfect but definitely a bit softer. She carries her weight differently. She weighs less but Her tummy muscles are not as well defined. And somehow looks bigger than her sister.

it’s not a perfect control by any means but it’s made me realise that two people can have near identical diet and exercise and look completely different on it. Genetics must be at play here. Something to do with metabolism?!

This is a real tough one. So, in my experience, I agree with the view that it is portion sizes and too much processed food and sugar.

observing a few people who are are overweight but who lead quite healthy lives (one does not drink for example, the other is a long distance runner yet still overweight ironically) then what they have in common is lack of fibre in diet. They are salad dodgers and eat white bread and carbs. their portion sizes are bigger than mine and they eat more convenience food than me.

I think key to losing weight is eating plenty of fresh fruit and veg and cutting portion sizes.

im in my 50s and menopausal. I have managed to drop to dress size 8 in last year and get rid of 4 inches of belly fat. I don't drink alcohol very often, I do 1.5 hours per day of running, walking, weights and yoga, I eat sensible home cooked meals, I avoid sugar and UPF and try and manage stress.

it works alright. I am now teetering on dropping to a Zara size 6 as size 8 jeans are a bit loose. But my life is geared to clean eating and exercise. i go to bed at night and my body is aching from the daily beasting it gets.

i have developed an intolerance of rich food which can be annoying as it means i can't really enjoy a takeaway and a glass of wine can give me a hangover.

am saying this just because i want to convey the disciplin and bloody mindedness that goes into weight-loss. it takes more than a bit of calorie counting, it's a whole lifestyle.

but i do think body shape comes into it too as some people are more muscular which tends to look weighty

Absolutely it's CICO. Anything else (low carb, no sugar, clean eating, keto, paleo blah blah blah) is just snake oil salesmanship to get people spending money on a product or diet.

But to say OW people lack discipline is horribly reductive. There are so many reasons people may become OW:

• Age
• Illness, injury or change in lifestyle
• Having children
• Simply loving food and making a rational choice to overeat out of pleasure - why the heck not?!
• Work patterns - shift workers are more likely to become OW due to disruption of circadian rhythms
• Mental conditions such as depression and anxiety - over-consuming carbs gives a sense of relief and safety

So: YANBU on your first statement, YABVVU on your second.

I have struggled with my weight on & off for about 20 years, I was a very skinny teenager, filled out in my 30's. Probably averaging around 2/3 stone overweight at different times. Tried many diets. I've had a variety of problems with dieting. A lack of understanding about nutrition, a lack of time, a lack of money & yes, eating out of stress or boredom. Been doing WW for just over 3 months, lost 19LB's, my biggest success to date! And WW isn't calorie counting or much else other than taking accountability for what you eat on the App. Maybe I just found my 'thing'. It's not a quick fix & again I think a lot of dieters are looking for that & get demotivated quite quickly.

I’ve been dieting for more than a year, counting calories. The food I eat is nutritious. I also swim four times a week. I have lost over six stones but the last half stone seems to not want to shift! Despite watching what I eat still counting calories has worked for me, but it can be a slog, no chocolate, alcohol, no cakes, crisps or chips. I realise I have to now find a maintenance diet which in the past I didn’t. I just went back to my old bad ways. I weight myself most days and write down everything I eat and have also given up salt. It’s a marathon not a splint and it’s for life.

I am lazy as heck and eat huge quantities of chocolate daily.

@athingofbeauty can you define what you mean by huge quantities ? I only ask because one persons idea of huge might be another's completely normal snack !

I do think it's as simple as CICO in the vast majority of cases (some medical reasons etc).

But the reason people think otherwise is because they are not doing it healthily, and it ends up in snacking, hunger, binge eating, over eating, falling off the wagon - the list goes on.

You can eat 5 chocolate bars a day and lose weight, but it's not sustainable. The same as you can eat bread and lose weight, but you'd end up hungry as it's calorie dense and you'd fall off the wagon easily because you are hungry.

I posted a thread about carbs recently as my diet is very carb heavy and it's not good for me, I've put weight on and need to find an alternative to carbs. But if you look at the calories involved, carbs are calorie heavy which is why I struggle to lose weight eating carbs. Not because carbs cause weight gain, but because I can't eat carbs and maintain a 1400 calorie intake without being hungry and sabotaging myself

You ate an onion bagel only, every day, for a year but gained 5 stone. This is not possible

Ive also been on anti depressants and ballooned in weight, why? Because I was craving food and ate more, and more and more. Also with steroids, same ones as you, wanted to eat more.

It depends what you mean by 'gain weight'. Sugary foods will cause water retention which isnt weight gain, but if you step on the scales after a few days, or a week of quite carby/sugary foods, even if in calorie deficit then a fluctuation in water retention would lead you to think you've 'put on weight'

I used to believe that and had hovered around a BMI of 19-20 my whole adult life. That belief all came crashing down one day! I went through extreme stress when my 2nd child was 3-months old and she nearly died. After 2-3 weeks in the hospital where I spent hours pacing most days and eating very very little, I thought the perk would be losing the last of the baby weight. I got home and stepped on the scales to find I had GAINED weight. It was like the stress shifted something hormonally/chemically for me and I developed severe insulin resistance. From that point, I battled weight gain that defied belief for about 2 years until I saw a Dr who prescribed Metformin. I stopped gaining weight, but it took about 3 months before the weight started shifting.

During my period of weight problems, the 3 drs I saw were skeptical about just how little I was eating, despite a punishing exercise regime. It wasn’t until I took my husband in who could verify that I was basically starving myself and still getting fatter that they prescribed something to help. I now have a BMI of just under 20 again, but I never would have been able to do that without medical help. I actually think without that, my BMI would have continued to increase. It was just under 27 when I begged to try something to address insulin resistance.

For most men I’m guessing it’s CICO, but women’s bodies seem far far more impacted by hormonal and chemical shifts.

I lost 3.5 stones in 7 months mostly lying on the couch while waiting for surgery. I had zero alcohol, absolute minimum of fats and sugars, ate carbs and veg and lean protein. I did no exercise whatsoever.
However, the lack of exercise has left me saggy in places and crinkly in others. But I look good in my clothes again.

Its cico for me

Where i think it gets complex is understanding metabolism, and that person a can consume 2500 calories of junk food and not gain weight, but person b will gain weight eating 1800 calories of healthy food each day.

It depends on genetics, how you process sugar, the amount of muscle mass etc. I think a lot of people also aren't good at calorie counting & forget a lot of little extras - the milk in their tea, the oil they greased the pan with.

Anyone who reduces their calorie intake enough can lose weight. Anyone. Its not possible to survive indefinitely taking in zero food for example.

Ok so the discipline view is unpopular and I guess in some cases short sighted but with the world like it is today it plays a major role in following a chosen path towards weight loss.

in my experience, it is all about discipline and good habits when it comes to eating and exercise.

am not suggesting OW people don’t have discipline in other areas of their lives - not at all - but there is no secret to losing weight, just consume less and move more. I can’t really see there are any valid reasons why someone is not able to do that unless it’s a question of discipline and hard work that’s preventing them from doing it? That’s what it comes down to every time regardless of what life may be putting in your way.

and we all acknowledge that some people’s lives make it more difficult to commit to these things, but it doesn’t mean the same rules don’t apply, hard though it is.

All I know is, I was the same weight for decades, but every time I had to have a spell on antidepressants, I put on 4lb that wouldn't shift. Off ADs, no weight gain. On ADs 4lb instant weight gain. Over the course of a long life that reached 35lb weight gain. I have been off ADs for about 4 years now and managed to lose 10lbs of it so far. But I don't diet. I just eat healthily (about 80% of the time) and exercise.

I think ultimately it does come down to energy in and energy out. But people don’t really know what they’re putting in and underestimate, and really overestimate what they’re doing physically.

Gut microbiome, ‘demonised’ fats, high and low GI, keto, fasting, non fasting… all are interesting ideas and with some real effects, but everyone is different. Probably everyone would need a tailored approach to factor in their own metabolism, organ function, hormones etc.

But ultimately if you move more than you eat, your body has to tap into the old stores and you will lose weight. It’s more sustainable too.

I decided I needed ‘something’ but if it couldn’t be food then what. So I took up vaping and do that whenever I feel the urge to snack, worked very well so far

Except are you reading the posts that are saying this just hasn’t been the case…. I too was ignorant until it happened to me! But now I’m back to a BMI of 19, my self discipline and hard work is on show for all to see again. I must have just picked up some hard work again at the store. Phew

Calories in Vs calories out is oversimplified. It's impossible to compare different individuals and think we all should burn the same calories. We all have different hormones, basal temperature, muscle mass, metabolism, is not just about and to calculate exactly how much someone burns is extremely difficult, this is why someone can seemingly eat lots and not put weight on while some people say "even water makes them fat"... When I see the recommended calorie intake for a women is 2000 calories it makes me laugh because that's probably how I got very fat in the first place....eating similar portions to my husband who is 5' 11 and very muscly. When I can probably live off half his calorie intake.

Insulin resistance is still calories in calories out

Because you don't have insulin working properly your calories out drops - sugar doesn't go to muscles where it needed - where it can be used up - but gets stored as fat

I've read that calculating calories isn't as straightforward as you'd expect. Things like apples vary according to variety same for all fruit and veg.

The best diet I've been on is the loss of appetite diet.

I agree with others. It is just calories in vs calories out, however in both cases people are different. Some people burn more calories that others, even while resting. Some people are just more active than others generally. According to my watch, I for instance burn about 500 more calories on office days vs wfh days, purely because it's further to walk to get water, nip to the loo., and because I get up to go talk to people rather than message them on teams. I'm not trying to be more active, it just happens.

And the same goes for calories in. Some peoples bodies are better at extracting calories than others, so take in more calories from food, and then some people store that fat in different places.

Calories in vs calories out works, but there's a million different variables that affect those figures that you'll never be able to work out.

Not sure if it's been mentioned but I'm currently reading Everything Fat Loss by Ben Carpenter who covers this really quite nicely in his first chapter. I'd recommend it as a sensible read in an industry that often is full of b*llocks

Essentially yes it is Cals in Cals Out but there are many many other factors that influence this and these are different for everyone.

Disclaimer - I am not in anyway related to Ben but I have followed him on SM for some time.