Do you still think it's all about calories in vs calories out and fat people are not disciplined enough ?

[deebate]

I've been doing a lot of online research over the years around diet/ exercise and what's the answer. How can I keep fit and be healthy.

I've tried various things and I am generally a believer in calories in vs calories out. Which seems to be the favoured method on here.

If anyone complains they're struggling with losing weight, it must be because they're not counting everything etc.

In any case, I've now stumbled across a number of podcasts of different doctors and nutritionists in the field talking about gut microbes and sugar spikes etc and how actually it's really not just about calories at all.

What's the consensus on here about all this ?

Eat a MacDs or chocolate and you crave more( primitive response to high fat calorific foods)

As long as you don’t give in to the cravings for more, you can eat crap and still lose weight.

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2023/jun/man-loses-weight-after-eating-mcdonalds-for-every-meal.html

I mostly agree that overall CICO is true. However, I think there are lots of things that affect how this is possible and how much weight you can lose. I was always skinny as my calories in were less than our. However, I’ve been on meds for the past few years that have meant I’ve gained weight. I actually eat LESS calories (and healthier) now and do more exercise but I’m two sizes bigger 🤷‍♀️ clearly they affect my weight in some way and I’m not going to reduce my calories any further (Under 1400 99% of the time) so I’ve accepted my new weight and just focus on making healthy choices.

CICO is the fundamental equation which dictates our weight. However, as many have pointed out, it's a little more complex than that. I think in the UK we have been bombarded with quick fixes, fads and new ways of achieving the weight loss (think WW, SW, diet plans etc). But other countries where obesity rates are low are generally more likely to eat seasonally, low processed and at a rate which matches their hunger. We're a bit more hooked on UPFs in the UK which isn't ideal as they have hidden calories, impact our gut health and do not fill us. Another point to make is that we all will have a different total daily energy expenditure (TDEE); this figure tells us how many calories our body needs to maintain its weight. But whilst this can be impacted by our metabolic rate we can improve the rate at which we burn/use the energy by weight training, being more active, eating cleaner and including good sources of protein etc. But I do think lots of people who are 'naturally' slim eat for pleasure/to fulfil hunger without the hang ups/emotional trauma associated with food and so tend to not overeat.

Someone mentioned Steven Bartlett, this man is basically just shilling Zoe and Huel by mass spamming the internet with a lot of word salad. Please don’t take him as a gospel expert he is trying to convince you to drink green chalk as a meal replacement whilst wearing a very expensive blood glucose monitor and listening to man after man droning on contradicting themselves on podcasts

Countries with highest obesity rates in the west are the ones with the biggest diet industries and worst food quality , I’ve never seen such obesity like the ones I’ve seen in the US , and it’s the only place where everywhere you go you see GF , Vegan, Dairy free, grain free carnivore …etc diets , people are always on some kind of diet .
The UK is not very far away , the quality of food has dramatically declined in the past few years .

It's so complex and everything is interconnected. I think they try and simplify the message to make people feel like they have a bit of control - so you're at least making some of the right choices. In general, I would say that if you eat as many whole foods as possible, and avoid processed food as much as possible, you're probably doing the best your body can do.

I've binge eaten in the past and have very bad IBS - but more whole food and cutting UPF has made the biggest difference for me (for health and happiness).

It's tricky though, and I think personal willpower is only a tiny part of the explanation for why someone is fat. (Using the word fat intentionally after listening to the comedian Sophie hagan!)

e.g. take the same amount of rice/potatoes - if you cook it with oil your body will absorb FEWER of the calories than if you cook it just in water because of how fat and carb interacts... and we need fat, it holds oestrogen, so if you cut out fat you can struggle with weight gain elsewhere.

Tbh I think if we stopped thinking about bodies and started thinking about how we feel and mood, and releasing serotonin and dopamine, probably we'd all accidentally end up getting healthier.

I do believe it's calories in and calories out, I used to be very underweight and achieved this only with calories (control/counting), and often ate 'unhealthy' foods (fast food, sugar) in my very small calorie allowance. I lost my period for two years. So yes, I believe it is calories not 'the food'.

Tbh I think if we stopped thinking about bodies and started thinking about how we feel and mood, and releasing serotonin and dopamine, probably we'd all accidentally end up getting healthier.

This is often forgotten because we equate thin with health but health is more than thinness @WhoIsnt

This was exactly my issue. On my MH meds, I'd got to a stage where I was eating everything that wasn't nailed down! Which was something I've always been able to do and not gain weight, so initially thought nothing of it. However, almost out of nowhere I went up nearly two dress sizes. I was frankly horrified.

So I dramatically reduced what I ate and, crucially, made sure that when I did eat, it was whole foods and I stopped snacking other than a few bits of chocolate after dinner. I find that, once I stop eating beige food, my body stops crying out for it. So no cravings.

With that, the weight started falling off and I'm now back in my size 8-10s! 😁

I agree with the sensible advice - issue is, that SO often the posts completely invalidate women’s experiences in this domain. I actually have no skin in the game now. I was overweight for 2 years due to a medical condition that seemingly defied the CICO science - unless it is suggested that some people genuinely have no calorie needs. My GP asked me to trial 10 days of 500 calories a day. I did, no weight loss AND I still ran. Funnily enough, I felt fine and was rarely hungry. I’m cranky at the GP now - they could have just believed I was already starving myself, I’m just lucky they believed my husband eventually. But I’ve been back to a BMI of 20 for a few years now and my BMI is now under 20. This topic isn’t even relevant to me, except it was actually a poster on here who shared a similar experience, which was the catalyst for me pushing to try Metformin to address the medical side of things. I’ll be forever grateful to that poster… so hopefully if someone reads this and thinks YES I cannot lose weight, and I’m not stupid enough to be miscalculating the milk in my coffee, they will know there could be something other than laziness/stupidity/poor willpower going on, and might seek help! Hopefully they get better help straight up than I did!

I think it is mainly CICO, but not totally.

Since I moved to a country where people eat a lot less UFP, I've found it much easier to maintain my weight without reducing calories.

I do believe that its mostly calories in vs calories out.
Studies on Atkins and Keto show that people following those diets actually eat less than previously.
BUT I do think calories affect different people in different ways and there are so many unknown factors there that just cutting calories wont work for everyone.
I stuck to MFP religiously and it kept telling me I wasnt eating enough but after 4 weeks I lost precisely zero so there were other things going on.

Processed foods and carbs, gluten and wheat specifically seems to bloat and make you retain water and weight. I guess the salt and sugar as well. If you are 2000 cals of fresh fruits, veg, no processed foods and decent quality meat, fish etc, you'd look and be slimmer usually than someone eating the same in dominoes, McDonald's, chocolate etc.
Assuming you both did moderate exercise.
I could be wrong of course.
Their weights might be similar but the healthy food person would look more toned/healthy at least?

Yes, I think you need a calorie deficit to lose weight.
Blood sugar, spikes, carbs, fasting etc are a different issue, and whilst keeping an eye on these might be beneficial to health generally, as is eating sufficient veg and variety for healthy gut and avoiding UPF, I've not seen any evidence to say that you can lose weight in the longterm without a calorie deficit.
Things like going low-carb will almost result in a calorie deficit anyway, s will cutting out snacking.
On the other hand ( and it really pains me to say this) DS lost several stones -and has kept about half of it -off by eating very little but chocolate and pizza and diet coke , so long as it was under the necessary daily calorie count. I hate to think of the state of his guts, but it worked as a losing weight strategy.

It ultimately is about CICO but what’s hard for people is eating the right things.
Many obese people have a really disordered approach to eating. For me it started in childhood as my parents would use food as a reward. I’ve managed to stick to healthy eating plans and get to a sensible weight multiple times but then it gets off track and next thing I know I’m fatter than I was to start with. When I’m tired and stressed I revert to making myself feel better with food & then feeling shit about it. It’s the most frustrating thing in the word to know that’s the issue and not be able to stop yourself.

I used to be very skinny, with willowy limbs and but for last 5 years I am cuddly. So for people like me, we can lose weight by restricting calories intake, taking in nutritious food, and also exercising. It is not easy though.

Anyone who has kept a thoroughbred horse and native type cob over winter knows that two bodies can do very different things with the same amount of calories! It’s very complex.

The problem with CICO (and it DOES work) is people aren't truthful about what they are putting in their mouths. Cooking with oil, a spoonful of Mayo, salad dressing, milk in tea and coffee...all adds up quicker than you think!

From an extremely simple viewpoint- yes it is calories in vs calories out.

However, it is way more complex than that. Every single person reacts differently to the food they eat.

If you had a room of 100 people eating the exact same diet & calories and doing the same activities/exercise, will still be all different shapes & weights.

Eating 2000 calories of crap like pasta mugshots, protein shakes/bars,low fat/low sugar yogurts and coke zero is definitely not good. You're just filling yourself with crap and the result will be more cravings.

Eating 2000 calories of actual food is better and healthier, even if you go over the amount of calories.

These diet programmes such as slimming world have a lot to answer for. They brainwashed so many people, predominantly women, that natural food is bad. Calling food 'syns'. Saying that you can eat a banana but not if its mashed? You can't eat avocado but you can eat sweets.

I think that's partly why there's such a big shift to less processed foods and moving away from calorie counting. People don't know what actual real food is aanymore. Fast food and junk food is way cheaper than healthy food, which isn't helping.

Essentially, eating a more diverse plant based diet of veg, fruit, nuts, legumes with good sources of protein, is naturally a lower calorie, nutrionally dense diet. Which stuck to 100% would reduce cravings for junk food and hav a positive impact on the body/gut/mental health.

However, our bodies are designed to want high fat sugar food and to eat lots of it, and it's in abundance. Who has time and energy (especially with kids) to cook everything from scratch, never go out for a special event, never eat a massive chocolate bar?

I think in general calorie in and calorie out helps if you eat overall healthy.

But weight loss is not same for everyone. Some people have genetic predisposition to gaining weight. Some people are taking medicines which make it very hard to lose weight or it could be due to hormonal issues.

No - the problem is if the CO part of your CICO is very low, even if you exercise. If your CO never seem to exceed 800 per day, that's you on a starvation diet just to maintain your weight

This is the attitude that bugs me. Blame the fat individuals for not being able to do it properly.

It's not that. They may be eating the same as you, but for a host of reasons, they need to go even lower. That's why they struggle to lose weight.

Agree with @sHREDDIES19 and the prevalence of quick fix diets. If I could have a pound for the amount of times I’ve overeaten and said ‘oh well, diet starts tomorrow’ and then attempted another diet doomed to failure, I’d be very very rich….

Insulin resistance and metabolic problems can be solved by losing weight.

I was eating on average 800kcals a day and had a job that involved being on my feet all day.

I did not lose any weight and actually gained.

I then changed to a much less stressful job, had less stress in my personal life and slept better.

I lost 3 stone over a few months without trying, even though I was eating more calories and had a job that was sitting down for most of the day.

So I struggle to believe that it’s as simple as calories in vs calories out.