To think good school places will be even harder to find next year because of the VAT on school fees

[Nesca1]

We are are looking at secondary schools for DS. We have our eye on a decent school bang in the middle of a solid middle class area . The school is always over subscribed; this year we would have gotten a place but last year we would have missed out because of how far we are from the school.
Usually, the school offers places to children living 1600m away, last year it was 1400m due to a large number of sibling applications.

Due to the whole VAT issue, i think more parents from the local area are going to be sending their kids to this school, rather than sending them to private schools.

Is this a reasonable assumption? I don't think parents will wait for the policy to be enacted, but they will move their year 6 children into this school.

Fairness in tax policy. As I have said many times people should not get a tax exemption for private school fees.

I haven’t seen anyone hear saying it’s unfair….I may have missed all those posts I suppose.

There are lots who are worried as they may have to uproot their kids from their schools. Not many on here seem to consider those kids being adversely affected from all they know, apparently that’s ok.

Those paying twice already may now think it’s unfair, I can see that especially as NZ and other EU countries give state saved money back which the UK do not.

The only toys I see being thrown out are by those who shout ‘it’s unfair’ if we can’t all afford it, it shouldn’t exist!

@Kandalama Given how much private fees are rising every year anyway, anyone with children at a private school should ensure they have cushion in their budget.
But if you want to start a post about your incomings and outgoings I am sure people can suggest ways that you can economise and ensure you can still pay private school fees.

Exhausting....but...here we go again.

A tax exemption is not a subsidy. The funding of state schools is a subsidy. It makes zero sense, it is childishly incoherent, to bang on about the tax exemption while pretending the latter grow on trees.

Each private school place directly pays for 3x the value of the tax exemption and up to 10x when you take into account upstream and downstream economics compared to state schools.

My last two finished school nearly 2years ago.
Dont assume you know posters personal situations by their comments on here.

"The only toys I see being thrown out are by those who shout ‘it’s unfair’ if we can’t all afford it, it shouldn’t exist!"

Literally nobody is saying this.

@Kandalama so if this does not affect you why are you so bothered?

And a tax exemption is a subsidy.

@MisterChips "...I think we're all agreed the resentment and anger is on your side of this debate."

🤣 All the people who agree with you agree with you.....

That's not even an argument, it's just an opinion.

What are the public/private costs/benefits of state/independent education? Those could be the bases of an argument.

And they point consistently to the VAT exemption on education being strongly in the interests of society.

Try again, ideally referring to chart I posted at 16:42

I can tell you are exhausted, otherwise you wouldn't have misunderstood my post.

Self awareness not your strong suit by any chance?

I’m not just interested in stuff that personally affects me. I’m not so self-centred.

Im against the Yulin dog eating festival but I’m not a dog and I don’t live in China
Im against Israel in Palestine but I’m not Palestinian

you get the gist

Here we go. No, an industry-wide tax exemption is not a subsidy. I'm taking it you've never studied economics?

Try again. You said you don't think "private schools should be subsidised".

I told you, they aren't subsidised, I've shown you a chart that pretty robustly indicates the opposite: not only are state schools 100% subsidised, but private schools make a disproportionate contribution to the taxes that pay for that subsidy.

I'm not tired, I'm on good form, and unlike you I'm an economist. But keep trying.

I have studied economics.
Whether special tax conditions can be viewed as a subsidy is actually a controversial discussion.

😅😅😅😅
Oh @MisterChips no-one else cares if wealthy people have to pay a bit more for their privilege, no-one being the 95%ish of us who use normal schools.
VAT needs to be added, and fake charity status removed from these businesses asap.

I teach at three different private schools. They are all parent power schools (Sunday times) with really good SEN provision. This is why most parents have chosen to send their kids there, not because they want to avoid little Johnny mixing with the local riff raff.

They are all worried, despite having excellent financial management. Most ps froze their fees over Covid and are now catching up, one put fees up by 10% this year and it's all going on staff salaries and bursaries, not profit. The parents are generally well off but not extravagantly so and many won't be able to afford an extra 20%, even if the schools are able to start clawing back some of the VAT imposed. There will 100% be people having to leave and seek out the oversubscribed state schools in the area.

Lots of state schools are good but suppose the one in your catchment is the one with the drug and gang problem? My brother was threatened with a knife by a y10 student last year, assaulted the term before that and the school did nothing. Wouldn't you scrape every penny to keep your kid away from that? There are some kids that just don't want to learn and will drag the rest of the year down with them, it only takes a couple in each class.

It's not the great facilities or arts curriculum that would make me send my child private, it's keeping her safe and making sure she's able to learn properly. Fortunately, we're able to afford to move to a house next to a good school, therefore depriving someone who can't of a place....and this is why it's a shit policy. The money Labour think they're going to raise and have already spent five times over won't touch the sides of improving the education system. The middle classes have pointy elbows!

I don't need to try again.
You are clearly exhausted, as you stated.
Next.
You also need to stop assuming what people understand.

I've made some arguments and presented some evidence. I'm not exhausted, this is however exhausting.

@MisterChips "Try again, ideally referring to chart I posted at 16:42"

Out of interest, what's the source of that chart?

not special tax conditions. No education is taxed (childcare, tutoring, music lessons, drama groups, residential camps, wraparound clubs, school trips).

No merit goods are taxed. Sports clubs, sales at charitable events, private healthcare. Those aren't "subsidised" either.

No education is taxed in the EU (it's against the law). No education is taxed anywhere in the world, in the manner proposed (New Zealand has GST for private schools and that example gets touted around with abandon, seldom mentioning that there is a per-pupil subsidy that substantially offsets the GST for average fee-levels and also that private schools can apply for, and often receive, state investment for capital expenditure).

It's not a special tax condition. It's just that education isn't taxed. Because taxing education is plain stupid, because it's a double positive externality. that's why nowhere else in the world is dumb enough to do it.

If other forms of private education were taxed, and independent schools weren't, then you could say "special tax condition" and be taken seriously. But they aren't, so you can't.

Short+Term+Thinking.pdf (squarespace.com) sorry, should have added.

A special tax arrangement that means you pay less tax is a subsidy. Such tax subsidies are often used to encourage industry to invest in particular geographical areas or sectors of the economy.

Lots of sectors of the capitalist economy generate considerable tax receipts. That is not a justification to subsidise them.

I'm not suggesting you should care about the "wealthy people" at the margins of private education being, mainly, families on incomes £60-125k who pay vast amounts of tax already.

I'm suggesting you should care about the harms to the public finances and to state schools this tax will cause. Or are you really so determined to cut off your nose to spite your face?

Gosh it's a bit echoey and chamber like in here, and someone's ordered double chips. Leaving you all to it.
@MisterChips yep, you are definitely tired. Tschüss.