To think good school places will be even harder to find next year because of the VAT on school fees

[Nesca1]

We are are looking at secondary schools for DS. We have our eye on a decent school bang in the middle of a solid middle class area . The school is always over subscribed; this year we would have gotten a place but last year we would have missed out because of how far we are from the school.
Usually, the school offers places to children living 1600m away, last year it was 1400m due to a large number of sibling applications.

Due to the whole VAT issue, i think more parents from the local area are going to be sending their kids to this school, rather than sending them to private schools.

Is this a reasonable assumption? I don't think parents will wait for the policy to be enacted, but they will move their year 6 children into this school.

“But wrap around childcare enabling both parents to sustain FT work is far less than private school fees – so why would private school be an option, solely for that reason?”

It is the “culture” across all the professional service firms and hospitals in London at least. Most of these people are funding HMRC in a big way and indirectly, the rest of the country.

It is perfectly legitimate to question their choices of being on the hamster wheel. But if they get off it as a group, then there will be an impact to public finances.

I doubt it will have an impact on the numbers applying in most areas. Where I live people apply to state grammar schools if they are academic enough anyway. It doesn't have an impact on whether they get into private schools and most people like to have the option of a state grammar if they don't get into a private school or decide not to spend the money.

Because the state sector doesn’t, for example, offer flexi boarding or the option to stay as late as many private schools.

To be honest, I think the impact on grammar schools will be minimal. Their demographic is already very similar to the private school one.

A nanny would solve all that and still cost far less per annum than private school fees – especially school fees + added boarding or wraparound fees.

But yet you’re still reporting the trope of privately educated kids being specifically disadvantaged. They’re not. It was one specific course (law) in one specific year (coming out of Covid) that was an anomaly in taking all plus flagged applicants.

Edinburgh uni intake is around 35% privately educated.

There is an EHCP equivalent (‘co-ordinated support plans’) but I have no experience of them.

VAT is not a devolved issue, so it will apply to Scotland.

And Scottish private schools have already lost business rate relief, which English schools currently claim.

I think Scottish politics has more to worry about at the moment than the effect of VAT on private school fees that will affect 4% of school pupils.

Are there many nannies who provide only wrap around care? Families make choices for various reasons. Just because you can’t understand their reasons doesn’t mean they don’t make those decisions.

Or maybe the answer is to build more of the places that parents want, rather than limiting the supply?

I'm the incredulous poster! Sorry, I just didn't realise that teaching 60 in a hall was commonplace.

My kids are in a "good" (and by good, I mean the kind of school private school parents will be moving away from) state school, loads of issues, but class sizes are still around 30, albeit kids sometimes taught by supply teachers.

One prevalent view holds that those who can’t (or don’t want to) pay extra VAT simply switch from private to state schools.
However, some fail to recognize the economic implications of this shift: it costs £8,000 per year to fund a space in a state school, meaning the move actually incurs additional costs for taxpayers. Moreover, there could be further tax losses due to parents who opt for private education cutting their spending in other areas.
Therefore, the revenue gained from the new school VAT may be negated by increased spending and tax losses, ultimately failing to benefit the vast majority.

It's an election strategy only, like the slogan of the Brexit bus

All the schools I have looked at are £20k per year - is this normal? We wanted to use private secondary education, household income of £140k and we can’t afford to spend £280k on them both. One would be fine, but two is too much, so disappointed. I thought we’d breeze it as have some savings and paying on nursery fees for the second now.

How can the private schools sustain that?

We're dual income and partly chose private as it supported us both continuing to work in our current jobs. We were confident they got everything on site they need, taking the pressure off our time at home. Without the prep school, I'll certainly take a few years off work. The juggle isn't worth it to me. Despite people on this thread thinking they know my priorities, family and financial situation better than i do myself! If the kids are in the local state school, I'll stop working so I can ferry them around to activities and give them more of my time for enrichment. Tbh, it sounds quite attractive! But as a family, we will be paying in less than we do now and taking out more.

This.

Catchment houses for great state schools have been very high for a very long time. They are already the domain of mainly affluent families. Grammar schools already have significant intakes from prep schools. Noteworthy too that in some grammar counties private schools are a fallback if the DC fail 11+ for grammars i.e. the higher prestige option is already state selective but DC from state primaries are still getting in when a proportion of prep DC don't. The imposition of VAT is not going to make a DC grammar material if they inherently are not.

The reality is that this topic is one that really only affects a small very percentage of the population. They are aggrieved and trying to get buy-in from the masses with conjecture about it having much more significant overall impact than it will.

Yes that is normal. We have a few private schools relatively near. I can’t think of a single one where the fees are less than £20k a year for secondary. Some of them are approaching £30k (day place).

Well again I think this is very dependent on local factors and the parents' sector. Where we are there often simply isn't enough wrap around care of the right kind in the village schools. It's often very inflexible and limited. Plus as housing is very expensive in the city, lots of people who have to work in a particular city location (e.g. hospital doctors) are not able to afford a decent family home close to work so instead have a commute. The unpredictability of the time you can get out of work + the commute makes the school wrap around very difficult (believe me - I tried it and ended up going very part time after a term as the wrap around was impossible to work with). Going with the private school near work means a more flexible option and no worry about commute delays. Then the other factor is that the private schools are very much geared up to the working parent model. Lots of childen stay for aftercare and they will come out having done their homework/read with an adult, had tea, probably done clubs and played with their friends. It means that parents can then spend the evening/weekends with the kids rather than rushing to cook/take to swimming lessons/ do homework etc.

As I say, I think a lot of it is local factors but most people I know who've chosen private from the start have done so to buy that kind of approach and keep both careers going. But it's becoming more expensive than taking the salary hit so people are switching.

The other set of people I know who've gone private have done it later because of SEN/bullying/mental health and that's a very different set of motivations. They're often desperate to keep in the private school and are much more likely to stick.

I worked in a Prep School in the Home Counties 10 years ago. I had just moved to the area with my DH job. I was the only member of the teaching staff who had an honours degree, PGCE and QTs.

@Phial
"I'm the incredulous poster! Sorry, I just didn't realise that teaching 60 in a hall was commonplace."

It isn't. The organised scare tactics on this thread are risible.

Yes, many nannies are part time. Even hiring a nanny for more hours than necessary, for part housekeeping example, would be less per annum than private school fees.

I didn't say I didn't understand the decision, I said I don't think the decision is financially driven. To say parents opt for private school because of cost of wraparound care is fairly ludicrous.

Where I live the private schools are often the fall back for the children who didn't get into grammar. There is only one private school whose entrance exam is similar but in not way more difficult.

It’s very different where I live. Most of the 11+ private schools are extremely selective. People who can gain places at such schools and can afford it only use Grammar applications as a back up in case of failure.

I’ve never heard of a child being offered one of the selective PS places and failing the grammar entry.

Until recently if your child got offers at both it was almost unheard of for people to choose grammar over the selective PS. That will start to change. Everyone has a financial tipping point.

It's the other way around where I live. The state grammars are more selective academically and many of those who go to the private school couldn't get in.

Once again, a nanny would easily solve the wraparound care in that scenario, provide all the care you mention, and is far less expensive than private school fees per annum. Especially school fees + the extra boarding fees. Most families I know who use private school also use a nanny for wraparound care – but of course, that's individualistic as you point out.

It depends on the area. The entrance exams to the decent privates in our area are far harder than the grammar exam. Children sitting for the grammar at our prep have special prep sessions for the exam. Those sitting the private school exams attend those same sessions, plus further specialist sessions.

Yes, it is hilarious including the assertion that their children will take all the grammar school places because they are so much more clever and the assumption that they will be quickly be able to buy a house near a good state school and switch their child over as if the oversubscribed state school won't have a huge waiting list.

I’m sure they were about £8k when I was a kid!