To think good school places will be even harder to find next year because of the VAT on school fees

[Nesca1]

We are are looking at secondary schools for DS. We have our eye on a decent school bang in the middle of a solid middle class area . The school is always over subscribed; this year we would have gotten a place but last year we would have missed out because of how far we are from the school.
Usually, the school offers places to children living 1600m away, last year it was 1400m due to a large number of sibling applications.

Due to the whole VAT issue, i think more parents from the local area are going to be sending their kids to this school, rather than sending them to private schools.

Is this a reasonable assumption? I don't think parents will wait for the policy to be enacted, but they will move their year 6 children into this school.

Most private schools coach the kids to pass both grammar school exams and private school exams so the pass rate for both tends to be higher.

That’s just Scottish students because they have their fees paid and the number of places for Scottish students has been reducing in certain subjects in favour of students that pay. ( I believe one Scottish University no longer does a degree in Latin as well. )
Students from elsewhere have received places in those subjects. So English private school kids for example.

I don’t mean the ofstead definition of good. The most desirable and highest achieving schools in an area might be a better way of putting it.

The majority of Private schools that teach 4 - 18 don’t teach for Grammar
Its the separate Preps that do.

The advantage is only given to state pupils who are living in areas with the lowest university attendance, or sometimes those with other disadvantages such as young carers or care experienced. It isn't something that taking your kid out of private and sending to state will get them - not unless you're sending them to a deprived area for their schooling anyway.

It is the equivalent of getting say an A and 2Bs where the standard requirement is 3As. It is only ever given to a tiny proportion of the overall applicants and is specifically aimed at overcoming some part of the disadvantage inherent in coming from an area or school where not many attend university. I am at a redbrick uni and we are looking at about 1-2% of places will be given under this scheme. 95% of kids are in state education. 5% are in private. About 20% of university places at research intensive universities go to private school pupils. They are not suddenly disadvantaged by not attending a comp in a deprived area.

Edinburgh uni has about 30% of its students taken from private schools.

Given not many children attend private school, and of those that do, many parents will still send them even with a 20% uplift in fees, I don't think there will be a huge effect.
Plus some private schools will make savings to lower fees and retain the pupils.
Those that can't may join the state sector instead of closing - several local private schools did that here over the past 20 years.
Perhaps in some areas there may be an effect, for a short time. But it won't affect many people overall. The market will adjust

Fact is, universities recruit a disproportionate number of candidates from private school because they get better grades and have better UCAS applications. What I'm not seeing is how this VAT policy translates into INCREASING achievement state schools. What will the money do? How will it make achievement better? Because replacing crumbling buildings and recruiting to the point where schools are safely staffed for 30 per class is not going to move the dial.

This matches my view. "Keener" was an oft-used insult, French lessons were disrupted more often than they weren't, and ducking to avoid low-flying chairs was a weekly occurrence. Not that the bullies minded, they got to go go-karting once a week as a reward for not getting caught having a clean report card.

No kid of mine will be put through what I went through. Sort out the state system first, and then I might consider using it. Forcing my family to join the chaos in the hope that things might improve later is simply a non-starter. Frankly the VAT policy smacks of trying to pull the ladder up so that even more people are excluded.

Signed: A card-carrying trade union member working shifts in a public-facing, blue-collar job.

Yes. If Eton closed as a result of this and all its pupils had to attend state school, it would undoubtedly be of enormous benefit to our country in 15 years time, even if it caused a small amount of upheaval now.

When the elite are chosen due to their parents wealth rather than their ability we end up with incompetence and corruption in government. It doesn't benefit anyone.

Regarding Edinburgh uni, my understanding was that they are not taking Scottish private school DC for Law because they don’t pay fees.

That’s not how it works.

The Scottish Government effectively caps the number of places for home students. In the year in question, home Edinburgh law school places were taken up by widening participation students living in low SIMD areas and/or had other factors that would give them flag or plus flag status.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64247475

It’s the result of a combination of increasing the number of widening participation students and the Government cap on home students.

AFAIK there is no mechanism for Scottish domiciled students to voluntarily pay fees.

I went through this too. But surely you can see that the only way this will ever improve is if the rich can't buy their way out of the system. Imagine if prince George and princess Charlotte were attending your local comp. Or the kids of Tory MPs. It might focus their minds on improving things a bit.

I don't blame anyone for sending their kid private to avoid the current system but unfortunately most people can't afford to and that is why it needs to change

I can’t decide if you’re being sarcastic.

How is closing a school with 1300 pupils (quite a few of who are international students) going to be an “enormous benefit” to the UK? Eton parents are hardly going to settle for the local failing sink school.

To be fair as well, there are quite a few incompetent state educated people who are/were in positions of power.

Hear hear to this, also my experience. In fact my parents were the card carrying trade union members who sent me to the local comp despite my state primary discussing the channels for application to the local private which could have included scholarship/bursary. I was a typical example of sending a bright lower middle class child to a state school so standards will be driven up. Well I got school record breaking GCSE results so on paper, based on results, standards were improving. In fact I endured similar to you DdraigGoch, teachers teaching classes how to get a C grade, massive amounts of disruption and disparity of ability (despite setting - the top group usually had an ability range from an A-E, the other groups were an exercise in managing behaviour). It was fucking miserable.

I'm baffled as to how Labour's tax receipts will change this to be honest.

Surely George, Charlotte and Louis would, under those circumstances, be home educated (as the late Queen was)? It's only the last couple of generations who have gone to school at all.

Or do you mean to ban HE as well?

They don't. But pushy and ambitious state school parents will find those opportunities and pay for them out of the money saved from private education.

To most, those opportunities are paid for at standard tutoring rates £40-50 an hour in blocks of 30 minutes. But there are other music opportunities available.

Likewise, our local hockey, tennis, cricket and lacrosse club is full of private school kids. They're open for anyone to join.

You think that the reason that many private schools are on thin margins is that their finance managers (or whatever the title is) just need to do better? Nothing to do with drastic increases in energy prices or whatever?

So next time we hear complaints about state underfunding, we can dismiss them with "they just need to manage more efficiently"?

Guess what, if you abolish all private education the sink comps will still be sink comps. The children of the super-rich will be off to Switzerland, it's everyone else who will join the race to the bottom.

“How is closing a school with 1300 pupils (quite a few of who are international students) going to be an “enormous benefit” to the UK? Eton parents are hardly going to settle for the local failing sink school.

To be fair as well, there are quite a few incompetent state educated people who are/were in positions of power.”

I don’t think we got the best of Eton in power at all. The main issue with politics at the moment seems to be that the brightest and best swerve it with all their might. Why is that? I do not see what background has to do with it. Somehow as a country we need to make sure the truly creative and talented, whatever their background, end up choosing politics and actually trying to improve the country. I would prefer to see those top of their careers in whatever field like Medicine, Science, IT, Law, Banking actively going into Politics. That is what will make a proper change. Do away with career politicians who are totally out of touch with business, education, health, you name it.

The problem is with the state system. Whilst ever there is such disparity in the state system, you will never solve this problem. Those with more money and influence will choose the best state schools. We need to ensure that all state schools are great and that all children can access a great education.

Encouraging people to leave the private system through a tax penalty won’t drive them to the failing schools. They’ll aim for the better ones, pushing others out. We will end up with a system where only the extremely wealthy can afford private school, those less wealthy private school parents will move/tutor to access the best state schools, and everyone else is left with the rest. It won’t help inequality.

Focus their minds a bit?! No, it will make them seek out the most exclusive areas of the country/county/town and ensure their kids are in the catchment for that school, where the kids are middle class and well behaved, where the parents have money to buy extra curricular activities and make generous donations for school equipment.
It won't drive up standards across the board, it will just make state school applications more divisive.

And you think that closing private schools will just result in the teachers filling in the gaps in the state sector? No, most will find alternative lines of work, many private school teachers left the state sector for any of a number of reasons (chair-throwing being one of them).

Those at the top of their fields, who could actually improve things, know that they are far better financially choosing other careers such as banking/law.

God, I hate this offensive "chair throwing" stereotype.

Yes actually, I think state schools and local authorities do need to handle their finances better. Many are severely mishandled.

If a business wants to stay afloat with significant financial challenges then it needs to make significant changes. What those changes are is up to the business. Some may manage it, others may not.

Counties without grammar schools have no state schools in special measures. Areas with no accessible private schools have better performing state schools. Selective education harms education for all.

@Didimum “Yes actually, I think state schools and local authorities do need to handle their finances better. Many are severely mishandled.”

Give some concrete examples, please. Ours are run on a shoe string and really heavily on parental input/help at primary (in person and PTA donations) and some financial help at secondary.

“Those at the top of their fields, who could actually improve things, know that they are far better financially choosing other careers such as banking/law.”

I don’t think people at the top of their field are always that money driven. The Labour Party want to reform the House of Lords (although have said it won’t be big reforms until a second term). Perhaps start with getting the best of the best in there to actually improve the country and make sure you have actual specialists in all key areas represented properly.