To think good school places will be even harder to find next year because of the VAT on school fees

[Nesca1]

We are are looking at secondary schools for DS. We have our eye on a decent school bang in the middle of a solid middle class area . The school is always over subscribed; this year we would have gotten a place but last year we would have missed out because of how far we are from the school.
Usually, the school offers places to children living 1600m away, last year it was 1400m due to a large number of sibling applications.

Due to the whole VAT issue, i think more parents from the local area are going to be sending their kids to this school, rather than sending them to private schools.

Is this a reasonable assumption? I don't think parents will wait for the policy to be enacted, but they will move their year 6 children into this school.

😂 the state system is already full of highly motivated parents. It doesn’t mean the schools have enough money to fix the leaking roofs and it doesn’t mean teacher retention is solved. You can be as motivated as you want, but as long as we have a government that doesn’t value education, the problem will remain.

@astonssandboxisalittertray
I think we've got some things really really wrong about how we talk about achievement and success. A good life worth living that brings an individual happiness and has positive relationships and connections as part of it is arguably far better (for the individual and society) than one where every ability is maximised (and eventually monetised). To what end, what is the 'success' that we're talking about here? Greater achievement for what purpose? Intrinsic motivation to accomplish something, improve at something well fair enough. But learning driven by extrinsic rewards can set people on a wonky old road. Success for external reward, the right career, job, ability to buy the right stuff more stuff bigger house.
Sure no one wants their kids to struggle and be in grinding poverty, but that's a societal/structural thing. The winner takes all (most), competitive individualistic approach too many are hooked into, is screwing up young adults mental health good and proper (not to mention the planet, which also contributes to their anxiety). Maybe it's fine to 'bumble through' be 'average' but content. I dint think relentless striving andc often feeling like you're failing does anyone much good

I didn’t say they would fill the gaps. I said the general public won’t have much sympathy for private teachers facing the move to state sector. What any redundant teachers do is their choice.

Absolutely agree.
Schools need to explore more avenues, offer more extra curricular for students to realise their interests and follow through.
Its no surprise our local grammar, which I understand specialises in maths type subjects but takes anyone that passes the 11+, seems to have an awful lot of pupils that leave school to take degrees or careers in something business/ economics/ stats/ maths orientated. How amazing such a huge majority have the same interest.

Are you an ex Steiner pupil @hettie

I didn’t say their financial issues were solely due to mishandling of finances, I said I think the finances could be handled better in many schools and local authorities.

Perhaps some will be motivated to stand for parliament. Just because it’s broke, doesn’t mean it can’t be fixed. This othering is bizarre.

You think parents should have to become elected members of parliament in order to get a half decent school to send their kids to?

Ever been in a class where a chair has been thrown? I have.
I've seen kids physically assault teachers of both sexes, put glue in their tea attach stuff to their clothes.

I've seen a girl get whiplash injuries from being dragged around by the hair by a fellow pupil.

I've seen so many manifestations of disruption: hiding stuff, saying stuff, shouting stuff, mocking teachers, mocking pupils.

This may be an unsavory stereotype to you but it's a real experience and memory for some.

@Kandalama Nope, on the one hand my parents placed importance on education, on the other they were bloody clueless. I was a naturally able child, academically very able. I'm lucky academic success came easily to me and I'm a curious hoover upper of knowledge and skills. Plenty of intrinsic motivation for me 😁I've ended up doing something I love which yes is a competitive field that requires higher levels of study and is well paid. But I genuinely followed my interests. I wasn't pushed in any direction and I always felt that my parents genuinely wouldn't have cared less what I did as long I was happy.
My success means that I live in an area that is very middle class/upper middle class with parents who come from backgrounds where everyone went to uni/the professions. Very clear 'sharp elbowed' stuff. I'm blown away by the fact that many many of my daughters friends have tutors (state). These are kids already in top sets likely to get 7's, 8's and 9's (and they've only just selected gcses). It's like a bloody insane arms race, with a trail of unhappy anxious kids. Like they can't be allowed to find their natural/normal ability. Everything is competitive and gamified. They get extra coaching if they show any ability at anything, they can't drop athletics or hockey or debate club or choose double science over triple... because...Well because what exactly? It might jeopardise their chance to get into the right uni/career?
So many of the parents are incredibly over involved/invested and overwrought about school choices and it largely doesn't matter. DH and I are the archetypal high achieving arseholes and poor schooling was very mixed. He went to 6 different schools, several of which were pretty shit. My 'naice' private school that I attended for A levels had an alcoholic biology teacher who was often AWOL and a horrible bullying problem.n you weren't victimised for being a 'keener' you were just victimised. My previous school was far better (imyho)... However none of these various educational experiences have held us back or scarred us for life. I basically think everyone needs to chill out and back off before we make our kids even more anxious and stressed.

@hettie
Well that sounds like a lovely utopia but once we get there, who is going to perform the surgeries, treat the sick, build the buildings, roads, bridges, infrastructure. Who will be contributing the taxes that pay for everyone to live well but not focus on money?

I don't imagine there are many parents who can afford to send their children to private school who can't afford to pay the VAT. The numbers this will affect will be minimal, so I think you are overestimating the impact.

Sorry for those seeking SEN provision, though, given that their choices for an appropriate educational setting are even more limited. Dsis is looking for an independent school for her ds with severe learning difficulties. He's currently in mainstream, won't pass GCSEs and needs specialist SEN provision for functional life skills instead. The council are extremely unlikely to approve funding for a place in an independent school and dsis can't afford it, with or without the additional VAT.

@astonssandboxisalittertray Did you witness this when you were at school, or are you talking about behaviour in schools now?

Many private schools take from huge catchments. I was looking at one today who'll transport from most places in North Yorkshire, they have 348 kids. If they all left the private school system and went into the 408 schools in the country thats less than 1 child per school. I don't think it'll have that big an impact in most areas.

It will make very little difference.

In our year group of 40, I know that most of the parents will easily find the money.

They could do one or more of the following if they don’t have the cash;

Go on one less holiday a year (most go away every school holiday - often abroad.
Work longer hours (most of the mums work part time or not at all)
Sell a home - many have property
Downgrade their car - most have SUVs/four wheel drive/sports cars and most have more than one car. Could easily manage with a little runaround.
Ditch the cleaner/gardener/ do their own laundry/clean their own car etc. most outsource at least some domestic chores.
Sell some jewellery or other luxury items - a couple have boats for example.
Ask parents to help out.

All of them have at least one of the options above in our year. Most have more than one of the options above.

I think the idea that swathes of parents are suddenly going to pull their children out of private education is just not going to happen.

I (and some of the parents I know who use fee paying schools) think that it’s fair to pay VAT. it it is a luxury.

@astonssandboxisalittertray "This may be an unsavory stereotype to you but it's a real experience and memory for some."

I have seen some very bad behaviour in schools, yes. But it is not the norm. And applying the stereotype across the board is offensive and destructive. The worst case of bullying I have ever come across happened in a well regarded prep school and went on into a "top" public school. It would be very wrong for me to judge private education by that.

People like me 😁... I'm in one of your categories.. I just wasn't pushed relentlessly or my talents mercilessly refined and relentless managed. I am a higher rate tax payer too if that helps..

I'm quite glad my parents didn't have a scooby doo about UCAS, Russell grps or that we weren't in a grammar area. I had utter freedom to follow my interests and talents which at one point meant checking out of studying altogether and thinking uni wasn't for me. I found my passion in the end though because I was given the freedom to do so. There was always an expectation to work and make my own way, just I was allowed to choose my path.

@CurlewKate but knowing that those things can and do happen in state school - and the culprits will not be excluded - makes parents want to actively avoid them.

It's much easier to vote with your feet and wallet at a private school if the behaviour is not to your liking.

Behaviour in state schools is not the primary reason why private schools are populated. Most private school schools children have at least one parent who was also privately educated; it is a form of continuing their status and what they perceive to be the elite form of education and life set up.

Eton might have funds for that, but most simply do not. Many are not profit making and do not have cash reserves. Where do you imagine they will magic a massive sum of money from?

I didn’t say they will, I said they should. Regardless, by making alterations to the way they run.

🤣🤣🤣

You are falling for the brexit bus lie again.

YANBU many families will skip private education now

Well I am telling you that they won't, because they cannot.

Even with 20% VAT, do you see Prince George or the Sunak children going state?

No, adding VAT onto education won't worry the parents who send kids to Eton and Winchester. It's the kids of doctors and lawyers going to the provincial private schools who will be affected.

One local one charges less than £14k/year for sixth formers, down to £9k a year for KS1. Given that we're in the North (and no where near pricey places like Liverpool or Manchester) housing costs are low enough that private education becomes an affordable prospect for a much wider demographic than the intake of St Pauls.

The other reason I'd prefer a private school is the very fact that they are "independent". I don't want my kids subjected to every reinvention of the wheel by education ministers. Particularly not the ministers based in Cardiff. I don't want a rigid curriculum, I want something tailored to my child's needs. It's not so much about buying advantage for my kids, it's about the different way of doing things.

I hated having to duck.