I am surprised at the level of Islamophobia on Mumsnet

[Cyclebabble]

I have seen a number of threads on Mumsnet over the last couple of days that question relationships with Muslim men, Muslim Marriages and suggest that Islam is an extreme religion looking to take over the world. I am a Hindu (nominally at least), but come from a country where inter faith marriages are common and where I am friends with and related to a number of Muslims.

Guess what. They are all normal people just looking to get on with their lives, doing the best for their family and friends. They are good citizens and they harm no-one.

There is a building view on Mumsnet that Islam is dangerous, repressive and looking to take over the world. It is now different to any other religion, as are the people.

Ok, assuming this is a genuine question, based on my background.
Generally speaking, Bosnian / Turkish Muslims*:

• Women have equal rights to men, hold jobs and positions of power in society (Women in Turkey got the right to vote in 1930, Turkey had its female prime minister in the 1990s, long before Germany and there hasn't been a female president in the US as of yet).
• Mediterranean cuisine and lifestyle (that is to say not all Muslims are Asian)
• Generally more liberal in interpretation of what is 'modesty' in women
• Education is seen as key to progress (we have female lawyers and doctors in my family going back generations)
• No arranged marriages
• Divorce or being single is accepted in society
• White including blonde and blue eyed, although more Mediterranean darker skinned is also possible
• Religious (e.g. pilgrimage to Mecca), but liberal, may drink alcohol but typically not eat pork although some do

So, generally, a much more liberal interpretation of Islam without giving up core beliefs and values. Does that help? Unfortunately, religion is often as a tool to manipulate and control, especially those less educated - this can still be a problem in remote villages.

It was a genuine question, I've not met many Muslims at all irl hence the question. Thanks for the comprehensive answer. I have to admit I'm surprised by some of it, but that is just my own ignorance.

This is a Muslim Mumsnetters sub-board, it's here.

A male neighbour of mine, who would have been about 40 at the time, experienced this in Bradford 20 years ago. Not sexual comments, but harassment and being told he had no business there. Unfortunately he had a job there for a few months and had to put up with it daily.

There's lots of different strands of Islam just like there are Christianity and Judaism. The difference theologically is that Islam has never undergone a Reformation like Christianity did and has never been separated from the legislature and political process like Christianity did during the Enlightenment. So in many countries, laws are made with reference to Sharia whereas you don't get this with Christianity in Europe - the Church is separated from the State (Republic of Ireland was a notable lagger here but it got there eventually).

That makes things very challenging in those countries where there may be citizens whose lives are very circumscribed or even endangered by the tenets of a very conservative form of Islam eg women and gay people. Especially women. But often in those countries the fundamentalist governments were able to take over due to a variety of historical factors, not least the toxic legacy of colonialism - so it's politics and power grabs more than religion.

But then at the same time there have always been and still are extremely enlightened interpretations and ways of living under Islam which have produced brilliant and astounding art, literature, science and mathematical traditions.

I personally don't think any religion can be inherently bad or good, it's all in the interpretation of the people who practise it - especially the people (usually men) in power. So I think it's important to also consider the wonderful contributions that Islamic societies have made to humanity over the centuries. And in repressive regimes, like Iran, to celebrate the brave individuals who work, often in great danger, to challenge the regimes and to help others.

I agree. I was in a relationship and had 2 children with a Muslim man. Whilst his family wasn’t impressed at first I was never ever asked to convert or force me to do anything I wasn’t comfortable with. Even though we aren’t together I’m still close to his family. We may have different views on life and I might not agree with some of their views / way they love their life but in no way is any of it dangerous or anything like the Daily Mail would have us all to believe. In my opinion this islamaphobia just causes more segregation which is a vicious cycle. On the whole Islam is a very peaceful religion and my ex’s family are generous and peace loving people who do so much for others. When they have a BBQ in their shared garden they take food to all their neighbours and there are lots!!

I would have to slightly disagree there re RoI. Schools are still hugely majority Catholic. We're getting there, but there's a long way to go.

Those who can't stand seeing bigotry mostly left the site and all that remains now is mostly the bigots and those for whom bigotry is not a deal breaker.

Which are you then, @Energypanic?

Thank you @Springchickenonion .

We used to have friends (white British) living in a large town in Yorkshire. One hot sunny day their daughter, 15, and son, 9, walked down to the corner shop to buy ice lollies for the family. Both were wearing shorts, a vest top and flip flops. The daughter was told by the Muslim shop owner that she couldn't go in but her brother could. When she asked why she was told she wasn't dressed respectfully enough because this was now a Muslim neighbourhood. It was reported to the Police but nothing done, apparently in the name of community harmony!

Last year we were at a local beach. It was incredibly hot. There were a couple of families near us. All the men and boys were dressed in shorts and T shirts. The little girls were all in floor length dresses with long sleeves. The poor women were in Black burkas with just mesh where their eyes were and black gloves. They must have been roasting and incredibly uncomfortable.

Surely this can't be respectful treatment of women. And I don't understand why?

There is a building view on Mumsnet that Islam is dangerous, repressive and looking to take over the world.

I'm afraid I believe that all three Abrahamic religions are dangerous and repressive. That's not to say there aren't genuinely lovely people who adhere to those religions, but those are the people who ignore significant aspects of their holy texts and teachings. The Abrahamic religions, their texts and their leaders have a hell of a lot to answer for regarding misogyny, that's for sure.

The same could well be true of the Dharmic religions, but I know far less about those. They certainly seem to produce far fewer extremists, but again, that could be my ignorance talking.

Agreed- seeing women and girls in burkas or other clothing which must be incredibly uncomfortable on a hot day absolutely breaks my heart, especially when the men and boys they are with are wearing shorts and t-shirts.

I know restrictive clothing for women is by no means only a feature of Islam, but in the UK, that is what I see most often.

@DoraSpenlow thank you!

So for a start the shop owner shouldn't have said anything. As it's nothing to do with him.

We aren't allowed to judge others on what they do or wear..we aren't allowed to tell people what to do. Especially if they aren't following the same faith.

What we wear IS a personal choice.

From my understanding and research a burka is not mandatory and therefor either a personal choice or one that their culture has decides is the correct clothing.

As for the children. It's possible they have many reasons. Modesty, protection from the sun, culture, what they deem to be religious attire. I couldn't say which one.

Also men are supposed to be covering most of their body too. From above the naval to the knees.

My girls wear leggjns and a tunic type dress most of the time. Because that's what they like and girls often just copy mum.

In a time when most girls clothing. Especially young girls, is sexualised. I would rather my girls where in decent clothing. I went swim suit shopping for them and there was a lot of bikinis for babies and toddlers.

So they wear like a surfer suit 3/4 length arms and legs.

Since I have started wearing the headscarf I don't get any attention from men, which is a good thing. Because I don't want it or need it. No cat calling etc. Listening to what I say instead of being mansplained. Those will argue that it won't make a difference. But speaking from experience. It does.

There are always lots of anecdotes about the bad things "Muslims" have done like this
Firstly, you werent there and secondly you have no idea if the shop owner was a Muslim.
I am not naive I have worked in and visited many predominently Muslim areas, including the one you mention and I dont recognise any of this anecdotal behaviour. I have felt a little uncomfortable at times but I have never been told where I can and cant go and when disaster hits or charity is needed the Muslim community is usually the one offering to help. They are there every week at my local street kitchen and when there were floods in a nearby (very white) area there were buses from local mosques going to help with the clean up.
Of course Muslims do bad things, behave badly etc but its not inherently because they are Muslim.
I dont actually like ANY organised religion at all but i think its unfair that the Uk press and some people on MN seem to seize on anything negative a Muslim/Muslims do as a prime example of what all Muslims are like. They are people and there are good ones and bad ones and most are somewhere in between

@Springchickenonion

Sorry, another one. My cousin had a Muslim family move in next door. When He was out cutting the grass he noticed the two ladies in their garden. He went over to the fence and called out to introduce himself. The women were immediately called indoors and a man came over angrily and told my cousin he was not permitted, as an infidel, to talk to their women. Not an outstanding example of getting along with your new neighbours and he never understood why.

Well those men werent actually "good" Muslims then as The Quran says that both men and women should dress modestly so the men should not be wearing shorts either
Again, that behaviour is most likley cultural not religious because if it was ALL of them would be properly covered up.
This is the kind of misaprehension that leads to people claiming Muslims do this or Muslims do that when its nothing to do with their religion

"another one"
Rather makes my point for me doesnt it?
Perhaps you would like to list lots of other things that you have heard about 2nd or even 3rd hand that you are grasping at to prove how awful Muslims are?

On the on her hand, @Hoppinggreen, you could just answer her question.

The fact that you've tried to say 'we don't know if the shopkeeper was Muslim' when he was clearly Muslim, says it all. Most Muslims I've met are nice people, but clearly some people aren't and have regressive attitudes.

You could just acknowledge that, rather than getting annoyed at op for asking (when a Muslim poster literally invited people to ask).

@DoraSpenlow so the whole idea of this is that women are protected. This will mean different levels to different people.

I personally say hello and talk to ally neighbours, kids parents and people out and about.

The problem here is, we don't know that neighbour. Maybe there is a reason he doesn't want him near them?

And I have never in my everyday life heard anyone call someone an infidel. So I'm starting to think that didn't happen!

Most people would politely say hello and then say sorry they are busy and leave or get on with what they are doing.

Most of my neighbours are wrote British and I can say 70% of them will smile and wave and don't introduce themselves to new neighbours or stop and chat.

I know 85% of my road by name and we have a whatsapp group etc.

My point is that you cant ascribe this behaviour (that she didnt even witness) to someones religious views.
You could say it was due to their culture but NOT religion.

And as for this neighbour calling someone an "infidel" I think someone has been watching too much Crusade based TV.
In my many many years of having friends, neighbours and co workers who were Asian (some Muslim) I have never heard any of them use that word.

Are you calling my cousin a liar? He was shocked, nothing like it had ever happen to him before. He was an extremely friendly, sociable man.

@Springchickenonion offered to explain about women in Islam and these are things that I wanted to know about. There are good and bad Muslims the same as there are good and bad Christians/Jews/Hindus, whatever.

@SiennaSienna

Whilst I agree with you on your description of Islam within Turkey, I would say this is largely due to the progressive influence of Attaturk who sought a modernised and secular Turkish State.

Unfortunately under Erdogan we have witnessed a roll back on these progressive and secular policies.

Come back to me when you would rather walk past Weatherspoons in a Northern Town centre on a Saturday afternoon when theres a football match on than a Mosque on a Friday afternoon

@DoraSpenlow well I hope I have explained somewhat that helps?

I can't say your cousin is a liar or not though because I don't know him. Not sure if that was aimed at me?