I am surprised at the level of Islamophobia on Mumsnet

[Cyclebabble]

I have seen a number of threads on Mumsnet over the last couple of days that question relationships with Muslim men, Muslim Marriages and suggest that Islam is an extreme religion looking to take over the world. I am a Hindu (nominally at least), but come from a country where inter faith marriages are common and where I am friends with and related to a number of Muslims.

Guess what. They are all normal people just looking to get on with their lives, doing the best for their family and friends. They are good citizens and they harm no-one.

There is a building view on Mumsnet that Islam is dangerous, repressive and looking to take over the world. It is now different to any other religion, as are the people.

Seriously, you want to get into an exchange on who has experienced more attacks in India?

You will lose.

I have an issue with any way of thinking that is repressive towards women. All religions are to an extent and also homophobic etc... I can't entertain it. And I grew up Catholic and feel the same way about Catholicism.

I do understand that some people can be culturally Muslim but progressive in thier way of thinking though and 'westernised', just like I am a much more watered down Catholic than my grandparents.

@toomanyy the way you are attacking everyone who doesn't shares same viewpoint as you tells it all we need to know about tolerance and acceptance. May be start with making some improvements on your part of you want to be a better reflection of your religion than crying islamophobia.

I have several friends who are atheists in Iran.

It always annoys me when people from the Middle East are called "Muslims".

This is a religion, not an ethnicity!

Would we like to be defined everywhere as being "Christians"? Especially when the talk is about US evangelists?

Why on earth does London hold celebrations for ANY religion? It is a made-up belief; sure, it helped the development of literacy, art, culture... but so did fairytales.

Religion should be like voting: everyone can have their own personal preference, but you keep it to yourself and the media are not allowed to priorities one over the other or any at all.

OP I'm from a similar background as you - Hindu from a country with lots of Muslims.
I think you need to distinguish between 'Islamaphobia' and general 'religiob-phobia'.

The majority of religious, rule-following people in the UK are Muslims. Ramadan, halal food , prayer breaks , headscarves etc such a massive fuss is made.

There aren't many strict Hindus. We also have religious festivals, fasting etc but very few follow it. Similarly, Sikhs cannot eat ritually killed meat , so they can't actually eat halal food, but again many dont know, because they don't kick up a fuss.

I don't think people have anything against Islam in particular but there really isn't any other comparable. Maybe Latter Day Saints, and they get no support here either for their proselytising or not allowing blood transfusion. There's less of them than Muslims though. Also Jews, but they tend to keep to themselves. And in turn face prejudice from Muslims who support Palestine.

When people say 'Muslim' they usually mean 'religious Muslims'. The balance between that and progressive is quite delicate...

As with so many things it’s very difficult to discuss. Any concerns are shut down with cries of bigotry. But IMO there are things worth discussing. I do not think sharia law or Islamic caliphates are as worthy as democracy and equality. I don’t think there are any Muslim countries where women have equal rights (I can’t think of one but could be wrong) , and I think homosexuality is illegal in all (and punishable by death in some). Afghanistan is the only country in the world where all females of any age are denied education.

some but not all people with links to those parts of the world hold views which aren’t compatible with British values.

and the weekly marches in major cities aren’t helping the optics - people supporting Hamas and the houthis and not being removed from the marches, people carrying foul anti semtic signs not being removed from the marches, people calling for infitada and jihad (and no, when you’re marching on the streets calling for it I don’t believe you’re referring to personal internal struggle), police removing Jewish people from the vicinity of the marches for their own safety. None of this is ok. And I’m sorry if that makes lives harder for the millions of peaceful, integrated Muslims, but it is an issue for the Muslim community to sort out. I can’t pretend not to notice it or think it’s ok.

There is a difference between being biased against a people and calling out bad practices among a group of people.

if any group uses their religion to deny a subgroup of the population equal rights that needs to be called out. In different cultural settings and with different religions we might see those subgroups most often identified by race or sex. Access to education, impractical clothing requirements, restrictions on movement, rules about working, different treatment by the legal system, and separation within the public sphere, may all be blamed on culture, but every culture uses religion to justify its bias.

This is not unique to Islam. We turn this focus to our own culture and local government when any religious fundamentalists try to sway public policy.

No religion is sacred. Everything can be questioned. Questioning is not being phobic.
Personally I question all major religions because they seem intent on subjugating and oppressing women. I'm a feminist and will call that out.
So, from my perspective YABVU.

I take issue with anyone who preaches, encourages, takes part in, etc any practice that is harmful or damaging to someone else. So I take issue with people who practice militant Islam and want to harm others as a resultant, but I also take issue with for example, Westboro Baptist church and their homophobia.

I don't take issue with individuals within religions. I have many friends from different religions (Islam, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, etc) who don't go around trying to harm others, so in my eyes they are good people and I really don't care what religion they believe in. I don't hate a random woman on the street wearing a hijab and I'd treat her no different to anyone else, but if she came up to me and (hyperbole here, never actually happened) said I was disgusting and should cover myself, then I'd tell her to bugger off 🤷‍♀️

I have a lot of Iranian friends who left Iran after the revolution there and I find their situation sad. They are Muslim, and loved their home country, but didn't feel safe there after the revolution and rise of more conservative Islam. Which I think is sad, as they very clearly identify as Muslim and practice Islam, but were suddenly seen as "Not Muslim enough" because they for eg didn't always wear a veil, sometimes liked wearing jeans or Western clothes and encouraged their daughters to go to university and have a job

Yes this is how I feel about it. Freedom from the religion is something we should aim for in the U.K.

YABU to be surprised. MN has always been full of Islamophobia and racism. It's just getting louder everywhere now.

I don't see it on mn any more than anything else. And like a pp I resent : disagree with classifying it as 'phobia'.

I object to all 'not integrating'. When in Rome, why move to Spain and not enjoy the Spanish parts. Many groups come to countries and are naturally drawn to others, that we can all accept. But a lack of integration means you get a mini-india, which is what Wembley is now referred to. There have been government papers on this, and studies into why British Muslims have not integrated into society to the same extent that other ethnic groups, but little has been achieved.

@YouDontLike this is exactly the type of attitude I'm talking about.
Of course, history plays a part but India is full of division. Its not just Hindus Vs Muslims. Because of the caste system upper caste Hindus think that the untouchables are shit on their shoes, etc.
All of this is disgusting and unacceptable.
In my home South East Asian country people are trying to sow division but we were never like that. Even in Indonesia, the world's most densely populated Muslim country, not everyone wears headscarves!
In my home countries my teachers, doctors, nursery workers etc all Muslims. Some are strict, some not.
I was very surprised to find so many hardliners In the UK who are nothing like the loving, gentle accepting people of my homeland.

It's the attitude of dogmatism and religious obsession that's the issue here.

Even Iran - a moderate, prosperous country until religious elements took over.

Always focus on the truth. 'Islam" isn't to blame, neither is any religion but the attitude of proponents is.

Indian Muslims, Arab Muslims, Indonesian Muslims they're all not the same!

I'm curious which country you are from @Cyclebabble where interfaith marriages between Hindus and Muslims are common. It sounds lovely.

I am also Muslim and married to a 'white guy'. I also celebrate Christmas and my son is mixed race. My marriage has been accepted by the Muslim community who are very welcoming and I have been warmly welcomed by his family too.
I am very aware of the issues within the community (like all communities we have our issues) but your comment comes across very islamophobic. You might know a few Muslims but the ones I know are very similar to myself. I follow the middle path, focus on myself, I don't wear a headscarf and I work in the legal field.

Most muslims just want to live their lives without having constant judgment by people like you. I pay my taxes, live a great life and was born here. You cannot speak on behalf of all Muslims by saying living peacefully is not the ethos of muslims. Have you spoken to all the muslims in the UK to form this opinion? As previous people have said, incel culture is on the rise, young people from any race are vulnerable in lots of different ways. I doubt you have any Muslim friends the way you speak about them. You come across extremely judgmental. And if you do, I feel sorry for them.

In my experience the worst islamophobia comes from our Indian cousins like this poster. I've lived in England all my life and have never had any racism from anyone apart from the Indian community who love to pit Muslims and people from the UK against eachother just for brownie points and to be told they are perfect examples of multiculturalism and its all the nasty muslims that are the problems.

I don't care what religion you are as long as you respect me as a human being, respect my choices and don't ostracise me for being different to you.

Which religion adhers to the above? ... I can't think of any....

In the spirit of 'there's no such thing as a stupid question ', can someone please explain the culture Vs religion thing to me?

I haven’t attacked anyone. You’ve reduced the debate to an attempt to start a tit for tat on sharing articles on attacks, in an attempt to demonise the entire Muslim community in India.

Maybe start to think about why you support the far right in India given their atrocious history in India.

I haven't really noticed eg on the thread about the Michaela Wembley school there is respect for all religions. Phobia means hatred of and I don't see hatred. You can criticise Islam and Christianity with its being phobia or hatred or hate crime. There are some appallingly sexist attitudes in some religions - see my link to the podcast on that thread I mention including Jehovah's Witneses (who are Christian). I don't think islam is subject to any more criticism than any others on Mumsnet. What we need to fight very hard to do is to preserve the right to say a particularly religion or all of them are wrong or sexist without being accused of "Islamaphobia" or hate crimes.

One reason the UK has never been so popular is that we allow criticism of all religions and none.

Religion is more your own personal belief/relationship with a diety. I could have no personal religion though and still identify with an Irish Catholic background, and feel pressure to conform to familial expectations. No children before marriage, for example. Even though that wouldn't be illegal anymore in the UK it would be a problem in my 'culture'/ family.

Well religion is what religion you follow wheras culture is based largely on where you are from or brought up.
So many of the things that people think they hate about Islam - treatment of women for example is due to the fact that the people with those attitudes were brought up somewhere or by people who believe women are inferior NOT the fact that they are Muslims

Thanks! Do you not think though that the 'culture' in Ireland was almost entirely based on the religion? It's v different now obviously, but it wasn't so much Irish culture as much as it was forced Catholicism for a long time?

All the Abrahamic religions appear to have exclusively male holy officers - rabbis, priests, imams. It has an impact.

Thank you. I think I'm probably suffering from the 'headlines' about Islam tbh. I need to educate myself. Just a small positive aside, but there's a group in Dublin called the Muslim Sisters of Eire who distribute food to the homeless/needy each night at the GPO. Wonderful women ❤️