I am surprised at the level of Islamophobia on Mumsnet

[Cyclebabble]

I have seen a number of threads on Mumsnet over the last couple of days that question relationships with Muslim men, Muslim Marriages and suggest that Islam is an extreme religion looking to take over the world. I am a Hindu (nominally at least), but come from a country where inter faith marriages are common and where I am friends with and related to a number of Muslims.

Guess what. They are all normal people just looking to get on with their lives, doing the best for their family and friends. They are good citizens and they harm no-one.

There is a building view on Mumsnet that Islam is dangerous, repressive and looking to take over the world. It is now different to any other religion, as are the people.

Sometimes things like Islamophobia can seem to be very flexible in how the term is applied. I guess the offence is in the eye of the beholder so if someone says something is Islamophobic we ought to believe them unless there is evidence that it is not.

If there are Islamophobic posts on MN - report them, but if you feel able you ought to comment on the thread. It is entirely possible (but not always probable) that the poster may genuinely not know that what they said is Islamophobic and will learn from that (see also transphobia, sexism, ageism, antesemitism etc etc)

I have mostly skim read this thread. was there an answer about the standing of women under Sharia law? I did ask it on the German/Hamburg Caliphate thread but as far as i can see also no answer. (as a witness and/or victim in a rape trial for example)

a pp asked an interesting question way back, about The Troubles, if they are seen as Christian fighting/terrorism. In many respects, of course, yes. In others, perhaps not. I think it depends on the perpetrators, victims and when it happened.

but what i really wanted to comment on was this (sorry can't remember the poster's name)

In a time when most girls clothing. Especially young girls, is sexualised. I would rather my girls where in decent clothing. I went swim suit shopping for them and there was a lot of bikinis for babies and toddlers.

Anyone who looks at a young girl and thinks sexual thoughts because they are wearing shorts and a vest on a hot day need to get their thoughts recalibrated. I agree that bikinis for babies and toddlers aren't ideal - they don't have the shape for it and if outside should probably cover up with UV protective clothing, but shorts and vest-tops are entirely practical.

No.
You produced a straw man fallacy when you weaponised the pretence that the counter protests engage in the same set of behaviours as the pro-Palestine mobs.

I think I will respond on community as that is important. This was my experience of living in an area where there was a conspicuous display of religion. Obviously I wasn't bothered by the idea in principle otherwise I would not have moved there at all.

But of course I then moved and have lived in all kinds of areas in London since which are mixed. And that experience has been without any repeat. In one sense I simply would not know if someone was a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew for example because the community was mixed. I might consider it, but has not been very relevant in the twenty years since.

Why did I raise my example? To say that in the main, I do not think that any area which is conspicuously religious as a way of life is all that good for those who are not. It seems give license or ownership in religious terms which is divisive or enable people to use it as an excuse to control or be antisocial.

I say religion because I think it is not confined to Islam. I can think of other places where religion becomes a dominant public expression and there are similar problems.

@Brefugee hi. That was me.

That's the point though. There are many reverse people out there who do view young girls in such a way. It's wrong but it happens. I personally would be ok with shorts and t shirt for my girls at the beach for example. However the design of most girls shorts seem so much shorter than those on boys. Why is that?

I looked in various supermarkets and h and m and there was a good difference in length in the boys and girls shorts. Why do they need to be like that?

I agree that there's no need for girls clothes to be shorter etc. However you can just buy your DD boy's shorts. I always got my daughter long shorts from the boys section - they come in all sorts of colours these days and of course it's fine for a girl to wear blue anyway.
Now DD is a teenager and likes to wear crop tops and tiny shorts which I'm not delighted about. I suppose it's the fashion...

@SallyWD you aren't wrong. But my girls get quite adamant about the colours! They are very girly and one is a pink girl and one a purple girl. They don't like the boys ones. I've tried that. And if i buy a size bigger they are too big on the waist. And the soft cotton/flannel types don't have the buttons inside to tighten.

Just don't see why they can't make them exactly the same as boys but just more colour variety.

If your teen DD is comfortable then fair enough. And what I'm about to say isnt related to you, what you have written or your DD.

But, we, as in those who chose to cover, get told we are doing it for men. In reality we do it because we want to. Not all women are told to cover for men or by men. But when a woman chooses to wear, say a short dress etc they are told good for you. Wear what you want. So why are we told we are being oppressed when we want to wear what we wear?

You could argue its oppressing telling us we can't wear our scarf, for example.

It can work both ways

Given the reports in the press over the weekend around the scale of Tory party staffers actively stirring up this sort of sentiment on social media I think it’s pretty likely that they have a presence around here. It’ll only increase as we get towards the general election.

(yes, other parties may do the same, we don’t know but we do know that the Tories are)

Of course I do.
Your view is very black and white. Pro-Palestinians marches=mobs. Pro Israeli marches= not a bad behaviour to be seen.
I am able to acknowledge that there will be "bad faith" protesters in either camp. Are you? The link below is just one example of what I mean by "bad faith".
'Gideon Falter Came to a Pro-Palestine Demo Looking to Provoke – And the Media Gave him What He Wanted' – Byline Times
Do you classify this demonstration as a mob?
Israelis stage largest protest since war began to increase pressure on Netanyahu | AP News

thanks for coming back. I see where you're coming from but it is 2 separate issues.

FWIW i bought clothes from whichever section i or my DDs liked when they were growing up. The fit of shorts was A Thing for me, but they wanted "girl" colours (or just colours, poor boys stuck with beige and khaki or blue) so i made them myself.

But. At a pool or wearing regular clothing - even if the shorts are very short: anyone looking or thinking about children in a sexualised way have a "them" problem that is not for society to oblige. If i want to wear a strappy top then i will wear one. And no amount of wailing or gnashing of teeth by ANYONE (least of all religious based wailing) will change my mind. I wear situational appropriate clothing where necessary (church etc) but nobody - least of all someone of a religion i have no truck with (all religions, fwiw) will tell me that i should cover me or my young daughters up because it gives them "thoughts". They can stay in and shut the blinds if they don't want to see what is perfectly normal (especially in northern European countries where we have so little sun)

But again - i agree that young girls clothing is a problem. But it isn't because of religion

Its almost as if The Tories are panicking ahead of the local elections and are looking for a "dead cat" to distract people with

also @Springchickenonion i saw your next post. I am with you on girls clothes. But the way to change that is not to buy them and to contact the places that sell/manufacture them.

I am going to take a punt that if someone wanted to set up a clothing line for girls that covered up more but still fitted and wasn't sexualised in any way, and for boys that had more variety of colour (and i specify boys and girls because they are built differently) based around fit, and actual size rather than "boys age 6" and "girls age 6" they could, with clever marketing, make a lot of money.

I'd back a campaign to de sexualise girls clothes, but not because of religious requirements/requests (i wouldn't back that if there was a whiff of religious influence) if someone started one.

I just did a quick search of boys pink shorts and loads came up - they have them at Next, Sainsbury's, JD Sports, John Lewis, Benetton, Mountain Warehouse etc. They're all long pink shorts and would be fine for a girl. I think these days there's a lot more cross over in boys/girls clothes - plenty of pink clothes for boys and less girly clothes for girls.
Yes I absolutely agree with your point about supporting women to wear what they choose whether it be a mini skirt or a hijab. My friend chose to wear a hijab even though none of the other women in her family do and her husband didn't want her to. She said it was her way of expressing her faith and made her feel closer to God.

@Brefugee completely agree with you. Unfortuantly I'm rubbish at sewing!

And you are perfectly entitled to wear what you want to wear. I don't dispute that. My comments where more aimed at the previous posters who felt sorry for women in hijab etc without thinking we choose to wear it. Just as you choose to wear what you want to wear.

The purpose of covering up, within religion is more as a protective aspect. Not because it just tells us to. There is a reason for it. To protect yourself from unwanted attention. Again, this is a choice, and it isn't to be Inflicted in such an extreme on young children.

What I was trying to say was, we get told we shouldn't be covering. But that's just as oppressive as saying someone should be covering

We should all just respect what others want to wear and not comment on it.

@toomanyy
*False, false. The Quran makes no mention of forcing anyone to return to Islam or any corporal punishment.

Those who leave Islam will have to explain to God.*

The punishment for apostasy is death (and people will also then have to face God which may or may not bother them).

also then have to face God which may or may not bother them).

Yes, which is why I said ‘But if they don’t believe in God then how are they affected?’

Convenient that you deleted that bit from my post you quoted 🙄

And no, the Qu’ran does not say the punishment for apostasy is death. There is no corporal punishment stated for apostasy.

What I was trying to say was, we get told we shouldn't be covering. But that's just as oppressive as saying someone should be covering

cannot disagree with you there either, i think we'd get along in RL (I could teach you to sew ;) )

What about the full niquab (sp?) do you think that any woman chooses that under any circumstance? I don't think it's an Islamophobic reaction but whenever i see a fully covered woman in the UK it takes me back. And it makes me angry. It is a "me thing" i guess, but i cannot wrap my head around choosing to do that on a flipping hot day. Especially the ones i see where one (often gloved) hand is occupied keeping the veil in place, so they only have one hand free. For me that is a very visible and shocking reminder of the opression of women (even if they choose it for themselves). I truly mean no insult here, but it is something that just screams oppression at me.

Perhaps i do have some elements of Islamophobia in me. It is usually (solely) related to the opression (internalised or not) of women.

The purpose of covering up, within religion is more as a protective aspect. Not because it just tells us to. There is a reason for it. To protect yourself from unwanted attention.

sorry, missed this bit. Is that universally true? I have a friend who is devoutely muslim (he has a prayer mat at work, and is observant in many other ways). he is lovely and we do have philosophical discussions about religion and other aspects of our lives. But his explanation for modest dress (he doesn't mention head covering, his wife doesn't wear a hijab but i think his sister does, but their mother doesn't either) is that the sight of women's bodies can evoke unpure thoughts in men, and it is to protect the men. Which is where my objection really kicks in (and it is the same with having sexual thoughts about kids in shorts) - those men need to work on themselves, not insist people dress differently.

Wearing a hijab as a shield? That is something i can completely understand.

Yes, I have noticed the same. Thank you for writing this

Out of intrerest: when you see Islamophobic posts do you report them? is there an answer or do you hear nothing back? do you bring it up in the thread too? (we have been told to do that when we see ageist claptrap so i wondered if MN treat it the same)

Unfortunately you cant say anything on the thread or risk a ban but you can and I do report. Some are removed but not all, often because they are quite subtle.
I did report a whole thread this morning though but its still there so MN must have felt it was ok.
I tend to report anything I feel is suss and let MN decide

I’ve reported a few and MN have deleted them. MN send you an email thanking you for the report and confirming deletion.

If they don’t agree, they say they’re looking at it, which is code for they’re not deleting it.

You might want to look into Byline Times before posting them as a source.
Why?
Because they're funded by radical antisemite and conspiracy theorist Eric Li.

https://order-order.com/tag/byline/page/2/

I agree with this.
I've been here ages, and have noticed a far right rise the past few years but it's until recently been bubbling under the surface and laughed at if you say there is.
It's becoming more out in the open, so I'm sadly not surprised at all.
YANBU at all OP

@Brefugee I just want to say thank you as you are the person to actually listen to what I'm saying and have respected my opinion without trying to argue. So thank you. I appreciate that.

So I suppose it depends on what way you look at it. Men will say it's to protect them from lust. But men are also told to lower their gaze. So for me, hijab to protect them is a 50/50 argument alongside women to feel safer

From personal experience in wearing and not wearing the hijab. I feel more repscted by men and taken more seriously wearing it. There is an automatic respect of actually listening to my words rather than being mansplained etc. I obviously realise this is not all men. But its a good majority.

So there are 2 aspects. I am less likely to be cat called etc wearing it. And I would feel safer out and about in evening.

I'm not saying men don't have self control. Because they do and should. And that's not why I wear the hijab. I wear it as I want to be heard with my voice only. If that makes sense? Lots of posters will argue with me and say that's ridiculous and they don't feel that way without a scarf. But until you have tried with and without can you really say that?

There's also the element of not worrying about what you look like. So between women for example. And again, I know its not all women. But no jealousy over who's up to date with their hair and makeup etc
This is a small thing but it always crosses my mind that I care less now what people think or view of me than I did before. Its quite freeing.

Regarding niqab. I personally don't like it. It's not for me. However, I have a good friend who wears it. She is born Muslim. Her mum.and other female members do not wear it and she is not married. She works and chooses to.wear it and is happy to do so.

So I guess, again everyone's reason is unique to each person.

Hijab/niqab is a deeply personal choice.

No one should be forced to wear it or not wear it.

Examples of far right ideology you've seen?

And which of these extreme right views have been left up (if they exist)?

Do words even have meanings anymore?