To wish I didn't have my daughter

[gingerbreadbunny]

I have 4 children, 3 are lovely easy children and 1 who whinges and whines all day about anything and everything.
She's really hard work, the other 3 go straight to bed but not her she's up fussing back and forth for hours, it's exhausting.
She doesn't ever want to go anywhere and will make everything about her by just being difficult and awkward, she won't do as she's told,
if she doesn't get her own way she screams and tantrums and ruins everyone else's day.
She constantly and deliberately upsets her brothers and sister who have had enough, she'll only play with them if she gets her own way and if they don't want to play her way she'll ruin it for them or won't play.
She's 6 and I love her but I just know life would be so much happier for us all if we hadn't had her.
I feel like she sucks all the energy out of me every single day.
She always wants everything to be about her and will deliberately talk over any siblings who try and talk to me.
If I hold another's hand she'll pull them off me so she can hold my hand instead.
I just don't have any energy left, she's completely depleting me and dh.
She is full of anger and hatred and is wearing us down.
She can be lovely when it suits her but it's usually short lived, just until something doesn't go her way.

No it's not unreasonable but you did have her and she didnt choose to be here.
I worked as a family support specialist for the council for a while and it's extremely common for parents to feel as though they've lost control and nothing will fix the behaviour. First thing I'd do is have a quick Google and find local early help teams and do a self referral. Maybe add suspected potential ND as it can speed things up.
Sounds like she's needing something and not very good at communicating and regulating emotions.
Things I'd look at if I were you:

• you have 4 children which must mean you're very busy but dedicate alone time with her. It doesn't have to be long, even 5/10 mins daily and let her know this is just for her. You can do the same with the other children too and when she starts trying to take over, remind her of her 1:1 time.

-setting boundaries. Speak to DH and have an idea of what those boundaries are. You can integrate the children in this area by doing a family activity of creating house rules and decorate an A3 paper to make a poster or something. Ideally you want her to do the thinking so that it was seen as her idea and when she's doing something that's breaking a house rule, you can refer her to the poster that she helped colour in and design etc.

• having LOGICAL consequences for behaviour. No use saying 'if you continue to not let your siblings play in peace I'm going to take away the tablet for the evening' or 'you're not going to the farm on the weekend' as the tablet and the farm had nothing to do with the behaviour. Try making it relevant to what's happening.

You can always use timers or alarm clocks to make it visual for her to see when her turn to do something will be. If she's talking over a sibling you can say to the both of them - I'm going to put the timer on for 3 minutes then it will be X's turn to talk. You could explain if she speaks over sibling, you will restart it each and EVERY TIME.

• Be consistent. I promise it'll get easier if you and your husband are consistent.

• Regulating her emotions. It's a big one. Have a look at the colour monster book series. See if she responds to that. You can do activities involved with the book (you can easily find on google). You could also Start introducing traffic light system red, amber and green. Green being content, calm and happy. Amber a bit iffy, maybe tired, bored, just a little on edge. Red being angry, overwhelmed and overstimulated. You want her to be able to recognise what she's feeling. Pop some coloured circles up on the wall and you could ask her daily (once you've introduced what the colours mean) what colour she's feeling. If she's felling amber then ask her what does she think she needs to move up to green? A cuddle from mummy, playing a game with a sibling, eating etc.

For when she's feeling red, I'd work with ith her and create a safe space for her to go when she's feeling red like a den or a tent or even the bathroom and put something in there like a stress ball or whatever (let her choose) that if she said she's feeling red, you can still offer cuddles and food etc but also this safe space for her to go to.

• behaviour reward charts. I think they're great and they'll be lots of different types online that you can look at. They only work for short periods of time, couple of weeks or so. You can have a few for different behaviours. For example, one may be for not talking over other people, every time she actively waits her turn to talk you say 'well done! ' add another sticker. Every time she has 10 stickers (for example) she gets to choose a prize (have a box of cheap pound land tat or whatever works) Use it for positive reinforcement as some children much prefer it. You could also get a jar and fill with pasta for every random good thing she does so it might be 'wow, you shared those toys really well with your sibling, let's put a pasta in the jar' or 'I really liked the way you did good listening when X was talking, let's out another pasta in'. If you make it quite a big jar and then say say when she fills it up she can have a specific toy or go ice skating or whatever it is that would for you guys. You can have multiple charts etc going on at the same time if you're looking to address multiple. Behaviours.

Sorry if that's alot. Hoping it all made sense.

I've reported their post. Struggling hugely to read some of the replies on here but bloody well done to you for your repeated efforts to speak against this kind bullshit on this thread. There is, as many of us are all too aware, a reason that the rates of suicide are so very high for autistic people, and those advocating physical punishment for our inherent traits and mere existence should absolutely hang their heads in shame.

You said this so much better and so much more succinctly than I ever could. THANK YOU!

OP, a friend has a child who is a bit similar. Not to the extent you describe but close enough. They tried every parenting technique and tried to work with the school but because they were did so well at school, there was nothing the school could do.

after a while, my friend saw a child physiatrist who advised her to spend protected time with her child. She took them travelling for a week. Just the two of them. Away from everything. And that one to one time was a massive turning point. It turns out, all that anger was coming from feeling like they weren’t seen, not dealt with but seen, and asked meaningful questions and being listened without being corrected and managed. Of course I am not suggesting you don’t do that already, but with your hands full she might not be able to fill up her emotional tank and constantly running on empty, wanting more, not knowing how to express it, and exploding from frustration. Which in turn makes you react in the way you do to her ( of course you do!) and the cycle continues.

please take her away for a few day somewhere and listen to her. She is hurting. You need to find out why.

good luck!

Oh dear.

Sounds like she doesn't have a place in the family.

She may have worked out elder brother by 1 year is more competent, able and articulate than her. So she heads for attention seeking behaviour.

It's got to be frustrating that slightly older brother is better at everything.

You're now all stuck in a behaviour pattern. Because she's only 6 and now doesn't know how else to behave - because you're all now conditioned to respond in certain ways. And bored and frustrated and exhausted by it.

So give your children responsibilities.

Suggestions:

1. Get the 6 year old to lay the table - and then get all the family coached to praise her, if she can put a knife and fork down at each place setting. (And check out if slightly older brother wants to compete on that or happy to praise.)
2. Get the 6 year old to put the cereal and/or milk out in the morning ... and praise ...

Get the eldest child to spend 1:1 time doing a 20min activity with her once a week, that benefits them both and is fun.

All your children need roles and responsibilities and praise and recognition.

Your 6 year old needs ot feel valued, but also part of the routine and rules of the family.

Parenting is a skill that is bettered through experience. You've raised all children the same. 75% success rate. So work out what "different and extra" you need to do, to encourage the fourth child to want to be a recognised and valued part of the family.

I can't say the fourth child is not ND. But everyone and their cat seems to (if they can't nhs then privately) get ADHD or ND diagnoses.

Maybe, just maybe your family dynamic, with a space of 1 year between two children - and a gap between them and "The eldest" and "The baby" in the family.

And maybe your 6 year old feels at a continual disadvantage. Because brother is always more capable and she can't play the baby of the family.

Where is her space and what is she recognised and valued for?

You can't just ' purchase ' a diagnosis. These views need to stop, they are so damaging. A diagnosing professional has to follow set, strict guidelines and their reputation, business and income would be significantly impacted if they incorrectly dished out a diagnosis. People are forced to go private due to waiting lists 2 years plus, being fobbed off and gaslit.

This language is highly frustrating as the suggestion is that these are just incompetent parents who didn't try hard enough and badly behaved kids who are just intrinsically ' naughty'.
The ND population has been significantly underestimated and in time this will become more and more apparent.

Some children mask their behaviour when they are at school.

only advice I could give is maybe speak to her teacher regarding her behaviour at home, my son (now 14) used to have horrendous tantrums and his behaviour was off the chart, as soon as he was away from school and back at home his meltdowns,shouting, kicking smacking, not getting his own way, being completely horrible to everyone in household was very exhausting but I eventually had a word with his teacher to see if he misbehaved in school, just like your dd he was well behaved but then his guard began to slip! After having a teacher involved not only embarrassed him knowing how he was behaving at home, did help to improve only slightly but I ended up being referred to a professional and he did have help with his behaviour, learnt to deal with his frustrations and emotions and also to engage right from wrong behaviour!Make an appointment with your Gp they will help you.

good luck hope things improve soon for all of you❤️

I have a ND child. I was also going to suggest looking in to PDA as a possibility. There’s a really helpful page on Facebook called At Peace Parents which will tell you everything you need to know about pda.

There is a condition called oppositional defiant disorder, which sounds a bit like this https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/oppositional-defiant-disorder BUT please don't rule out allergies:

• I have a good friend whose youngest was very spoiled because of her heart condition and her big sister was treated as miserable, moany and naughty like this. Fast forward to a year after the heart op and 4 yr old was growing and thriving. Doc at checkup mentioned how small older child was and investigation showed that she was coeliac! Instant, and I mean within a week, began to change to a sunny happy child.
• My own DD could be miserable and moany if she had low levels of milk products over a week (we did our best for lactose free diet, but school were not so careful). So don't rule out allergies.
• I remember a child who could get high on apples - yeast allergy

There seems to be a weird assumption throughout this thread that parents of neurodiverse kids don't discipline their kids. We do. But it's very complicated. Sometimes they are naughty, sometimes they are in overwhelm/meltdown from sensory over load/masking. As parents of ND kids we have to figure out which it is, and it's really hard. Punishing a kid in meltdown is really unfair to them, and damaging to your relationship with them.
On the other hand letting them be naughty isn't an option either and I know I deal with this too.
As someone looking in from the outside, it would be hard to understand what the parent is doing, why they are letting seemingly naughty behaviour off in some instances, when we are judging that's it's meltdown and that soothing and calming is needed.
It's a fine line and actually a really intensive and demanding way to parent, but we're trying our best in very difficult circumstances.
Things trigger our kids that would never trigger an NT kid, and they don't come with a manual telling us what that is.

I think you need to go see a child pchcologist or behavioural expert ( not sure who!) start with the GP and go from there, her behaviour seems rather extreme

Hard to believe but she hopefully will grow out of this if there are no other issues. (You don’t know at this stage)
Hold her, cuddle her, tell her she’s amazing and her family and friends are going to love her but she’s got to be extra nice because some people need a bit extra time and care.
🤞it may work it did with my granddaughter, we really don’t know how their minds work.
my granddaughter has turned out amazing but the tantrum years were hard.
❤️

No I don't think it would. I didn't mind exams.

From being a small child it was evident I needed structure and routine and if it deviated then I would have immense anxiety and bouts of anger, especially at home as I masked at school.

I was given routine and structure because of my needs, not because of the absence of a diagnosis.

A diagnosis would have helped more people understand my need for structure and routine and possibly had it provided as an accommodation or reasonable adjustment. I do think that they could have accommodated my needs better in school, so I could still have been really academically successful but with less burnout. It would also have helped people realise that I was actually having meltdowns which are huge emotional responses which for the most part can't be stopped, and prevention was the best method, as opposed to just being a little madam.

I'm fortunate that my mum has always worked closely with the autism service anyway so I really don't think she would have been a permissive parent, but it would have confirmed my needs and sensory profile.

Now I am an adult, and my own child has an autism diagnosis I would love for him to be academically successful but I don't want him to place his value on academic success like I did because statistically autistic people are much more likely to suffer from extreme poor mental health outcomes than NT people, and there were definitely times in my life where I couldn't have gotten lower, and wished I had someone to tell me that the just try harder mentality would not work for me.

In short, there's more to life than qualifications. They're great and all, but you can't use them if your mental health is so low it's in another time zone.

How absolutely exhausting.
You have 4 children ! Well that’s tiring in itself looking after a large family PLUS you have one child who is very different and difficult to parent .
You need a break and you need help .
I would definitely start with the GP / child health nurse and tell them absolutely everything you’ve told us here .
Great behaviour at school and then challenging behaviour at home suggest to me she’s masking at school and then it all bursts out at home .
Masking is exhausting

My son was like this. He is adorable and the golden child at school, but a nightmare at home, clingy, insecure, only wants to do what he wants, but this went in phases. Eventually I read "the book you wish your parents had read and your children will thank you for reading" by Philippa Perry and he had a book called your inner chimp. It really helped! I had to put firm boundaries, routines, be stricter than I wanted to be and be very very direct about what I wanted him to do, when and why. I also have to prewarn/remind him of things scheduled in the day, he transitions between activities badly.

Here is where the problem lies… if she gets off the step she’s returned and returned and returned until she does her 6 minutes!! If she leaves her room she is returned and made to stay there. Stand outside and just keep putting her back and not talking to her.
she might be strong willed but if you don’t win now you will have a nightmare of a teenager, marriage issues and other kids that resent the household!
if she tries to take your hand off of another child I’d be saying no, you’re holding other child’s hand and she must hold someone else’s, it shouldn’t be the case that the naughtiest or loudest kid gets the most attention, quite the opposite. When she talks over simnlings I’d send her or take her out of the room or get DH to and tell her she’s being rude and needs to wait her turn to speak !

what is she like at school?

Yeah that worked so well for my ND child who was 4 years taller than her age.

It became a wrestling/kicking match that just upset both of us.

Please do not take this as critical, but your reaction to the "terrible twos" that were more extreme in her than her older siblings may have set a pattern that neither of you can break without professional help, but as a start try repeating that you love her, just not her behaviour, and praising her for doing the simple things you take for granted. She is not a clone of her older sibling - you cannot say "well it worked for the other two so it is HER fault".

My neighbour had two well behaved and complaint children, and would often give me "advice" about my rather more adventurous DS. Then she had David! She had only expertise in quiet compliant children and was at her wits end with David. And play her up he did.

Aged just 18 months, she put him down for his nap, and he escaped the house and was found playing in the building sand 4 doors down, and he threw her first ever tantrum when she tried to take him home. High fences and gates added to keep him in the garden just taught him to climb. I left my back door open in the summer, and came downstairs to find he (aged 2.5 had escaped again and was in my kitchen with the biscuit tin from my top cupboard on the floor munching his way through. (She did not believe in biscuits, but how he knew where to find mine remains a mystery)

While I do see that she is likely to be ND, have you thought that your ways of dealing with her and your clear antipathy at an early age are part of the problem?
My mother did not want another child full stop, but it came across to me that she hated ME. Aged 72, I still feel unloved and only once she ever told me she loved me 2 weeks before she died. Much of her behaviour may well be a reaction to yours. My whole life pattern of behaviour is based on that.

SO get help, but understand that after 4 years, it is not going to be a quick fix.

That's because what you're calling for is abusive. HTH.

So you'd neglect and abuse your child and you sounds very proud of that.

@Snippysocks

I think most people, not just Mumsnetters, would think that refusing to feed, putting outside, threatening to smack and then actually smacking a six year old is abusive tbh. Odd you think otherwise.

@ftp you've just made me cry.

My mother told me she loved me the week before she died.
I was a mistake and would never be pretty.
She also said I had grown into a lovely woman. I had nursed her before the hospice.
I said up thread how difficult my daughter was but I have also always told her I love her and she's beautiful.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead

Thats a great post. Thank you.

My situation now is that DD (who is very bright, creative, v similar to behaviour described) is coping and achieving. I see her self regulating which is a massive step.

My DS has a speech delay and is having his ASD screening in a couple of days time (after a 2 year wait). He is very different to DD, but potentially is ND too.

As their parent, I see my role as ensuring they are happy, to see the good in life and in themselves, that they are independent, that they feel valued and accepted for who they are. I have reservations in diagnosing them with something that is so broad, the cause of which isn’t fully know - yet this diagnosis will be with them for life.

I read an article discussing how even doctors admit to struggling with the boundaries of autism. When a disorder or condition occurs on a spectrum the threshold can become murky?

My DS has an EHCP. He doesn’t yet have an ASD diagnosis - but his needs are very much associated with his speech. Speech therapy has helped immensely, but there tends to be an automatic assumption of - he lacks social skills, he has repetitive behaviours, he cannot turn take : and which are not characteristics he exhibits. He nearly got refused a school place as the SENCO assumed autism and that he would be too difficult to teach.

To me, an increasing number of people tend to think they are ND - to the extent that ND is potentially catching up with NT - if it became 50/50 or even 60/40 ND to NT then NT would end up being the minority and no longer ‘typical’.

I also think there may be a link to society becoming more individualistic, as as we examine our needs, insecurities, anxieties - we start to Google, self diagnose etc rather than seeing our negative/difficult traits as a ‘normal’ part of being human.

I also think that health services/schools cannot cope with this huge increase. And perhaps there is a tendency to excuse a behaviour rather than tackle it.

I still go back to Supernanny, because even though I didn’t always agree : she did get the main point of love, praise, assertiveness and not allowing a child to deviate from a boundary or rule if they were going to harm themselves or others.

I am seeing a lot of comments that suggest this child can actually help it! Yes there is an element of that here, but she is only 6, and the pattern was set when she was 2. For 4 years, she has been treated in a specific way that works for her siblings but not for her. She may not understand, and punishment and reward clearly does not work. It needs Op to stop thinking about behaviour modification and go back to beginning and try to understand what makes her tick and work from there. Not easy when you have four little ones. The other 3 are also affected by the conflict, and are possibly adding to it, as they do not understand why DD cannot be like them. Professional help and potential diagnosis are vital

Speaking of supernanny when i watch them now, knowing what i know of children with asd and adhd, i think a huge proportion of children featured were probably ND.