To resent doctors who leave the profession?

[Prrambulate]

IN PARTICULAR, to take up lucrative management consultancy roles at the likes of McKinsey. I know three doctors among my uni cohort who have left the profession in the early-mid 30s, very close to or having trained at consultancy level for specialisms like ophthalmology, orthopaedics. It seems to be happening more often but that could just be my perception.

It’s frustrating because medical places are significantly capped in the UK, getting a place on a course is difficult, and training these doctors is costly. And then just to lose these qualified doctors at a time of dire need in the NHS is kind of maddening.

Women going part time is also having a significant impact.

I think your anger would be better directed at the conditions in the NHS that are burning out so many doctors that they are leaving/reducing their hours/retiring early/going to Australia.

Not a doctor but aren't these part-time GPs and the like largely working what most people would consider full time hours (40 hours per week)? The ridiculous workload seems to be why a lot of women drop to part-time.

Clearly there are jobs that need doing that require qualified-doctor level training. Who else should do them but, well, doctors?

Are you saying that these people should work terrible hours for appalling pay (relative to hours and stress), instead of a better paid, less stressful job they are just as qualified for?

Do you do that?

If the working conditions were vastly improved many would stay. Many consultants I know have moved to Canada, NZ or Australia, for better work life balance, standard of life and money.
If I could I would go too. It's hideous in the NHS, and not just because of the government, the patients attitude and treatment of staff are not making work conditions happy or healthy.

I can see why people (men and women) drop to part time, with tax brackets as they are.

Best to look at the reasons why they are leaving in droves.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Would so many drs be so stressed and leaving if so many drs hadn’t already left?

it’s the breathtaking hypocrisy of those doctors that piss off to Australia that pisses me off. 10 people apply to every med school place. Medics are evangelical about the funding of the NHS (with no private medical insurance funding) and yet when that funding method gives careers that pay less than an alternatively funded medical system, off they fuck, with the £250k funding this country has spent on training them.

Can we restrict places in our medical schools to those who commit to work for the NHS please? Those worthy of our investment? The rest of them really, really don’t deserve it.

I know what you mean. But, and this is the key for me, I think they were sold a lie when they were 16/17 years old.

People really put doctors on a pedestal, it really is viewed as the zenith of careers for some people.

But, they have no idea about the moving around (I have no idea why it's done like this, but it has to be really shitty to keep moving, often hundreds of miles away) to work in a job that isn't actually well paid and has really bad conditions. How your meant to have a life outside of medicine is beyond me.

So, no I don't blame them. I feel quite sad for them. Their dream was shattered!

I have cancer, a separate long term disability and caring responsibility. I have had to fight tooth and nail to go part time- 38hrs. I am still seriously considering walking away to something less challenging, because I'm definitely not in it for the money.
It is the conditions that drive people away.

I'm a full time female doctor and I'm not going anywhere, but honestly it can be proper shit at times. You have to give up on a lot and miss out on times with your children and family. There is so much work and you never feel done. You have no clue what that will feel like when you choose the career at 17. At some point you have to be able to choose your own emotional well being.

I think the hero trope is unhelpful to be honest. It's a job like any other. Somehow if you are in the NHS you are expected to stay even if it's dreadful, even if you could leave and be paid double elsewhere, even if you could move and have much better pay and conditions. Who else here would stay in a job, when they could move somewhere and earn twice as much for working less? Yet doctors are expected to for the love of the patients (who are also in the other job and who are sometimes not very nice to you)

Who insists on the capping of places?

The government caps the places because it cannot afford the postgraduate training of more Drs.

When you have a shortage of senior Drs who is going to train all the junior ones?

(Also a full time female NHS Consultant not going anywhere)

Absolutely agree. I have a lot of respect for doctors and I understand that they are feeling undervalued at the minute but you’re right, there are far more students applying than there are training spaces available. I think they should have to commit to working in the NHS for at least 7/8 years after training, because it is the tax payers money that trains them.

I’m sure some of the rejected candidates would have snapped up the place in a heartbeat.

It isn't just female docs going part time, plenty of male ones too.

Do you really want to force burnt out medics to stay in the clinical side ? If they are leaving in their mid / late 30s they will have been qualified 10-12 years and will have given significant levels of service during that time. Many will have paid for their own post-grad training courses too and have significant student loans.

Rather than resenting the individuals please have a look at how they are being treated by their employers. The medics are voting with their feet - that's what happens when an employer behaves poorly and the workforce has a highly saleable set of skills.

Full time female doctor in a surgical specialty within sniffing distance of CCT. I do resent them but only in the fact that I'm bloody jealous that I'm not brave enough to join them. Plus now babies/ house/ dog etc tying me to the UK There's a big part of me that also thinks well I'm putting up with this shit so why can't they?!
It's difficult isn't it because it definitely is contributing to the difficulties the nhs is facing at the moment but equally my ire is not contributing to the wider need for the nhs to work on staff retention not just for doctors but globally.

I am pissed off at helpfulpersons post too

'Women going part time '
Yes all the woes of the NHS are because they let too many women be Drs.
I have actually had that said to me IRL.

Largely female Drs are going LTFT to raise children (hard to do that otherwise with a full time shift pattern/ on call rota as childcare isn't 24-7) who presumably also have fathers. Fathers who are often also Drs.
But no it is the fault of women as ever.

Don’t blame the doctors when the government has eroded the pay. I get more than a doctor with the same years of experience and I didn’t even need the degree I have. I don’t work evenings or weekends. I don’t have much responsibility. I get lunch breaks etc and finish on time. Doctors are treated like crap. They deserve so much better.

Training them costs nothing. They pay for their tuition at university and come out as qualified doctors with significant debts.
What you call training is them working as qualified doctors before they choose to move into a specific specialty. All the time working unsociable hours and for significantly less than they used to.

NHS/med schools/govt. None of whom want there to be unemployed doctors at the end of the training. There can only be as many places at med schools as there are placements during med schools…..ie gp surgeries and hospital ward placements.

But even more importantly are the amount of junior dr jobs available at the end of medical school. You can’t have 10,000 med school places if only 7500 jobs a year. So there is planning based on this. I believe med school places have increased from 6000 to 7500.

And you can say we’ll increase the number of junior dr posts……but junior drs need to be supervised. It’s still a training/learning position so they need opportunities to develop. If theres realistically only 100 junior dr positions at a certain hospital if that hospital employ 200 not only does it cost the govt a fortune but each individual gets half the experience.

Bit suspicious of posts like this in an election year tbh.

Look for the reasons doctors don’t want to stay. Also an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - fixing the NHS starts well outside any doctor’s surgery or hospital.

It's victim blaming to blame people for leaving jobs that have poor working conditions, salaries that haven't kept pace with inflation and a poor life work balance.
The blame lies firmly with the Tories who have spent over a decade making the NHS as dysfunctional as possible.

Honestly if you feel so strongly about doctors leaving, why don't you become one (if you aren't)?
You can't blame people for making choices for themselves and their families.

Absolutely. Too many people refuse to hear it, but it's a problem.

I do know what you mean, but the question of why they are leaving needs to be addressed. But I do think a commitment to work for a period of time post graduation or pay back all or part of training fees would be perfectly reasonable if working conditions were sorted out.

The thing is, doctor pay hasn’t kept up with other countries and sectors. So of course they’re going to bugger off to McKinsey. Anyone would.

£100k (for a consultant) felt like mega bucks 20 years ago but with inflation it’s not now, particularly when you consider the 15 years of training, the hours, the responsibility, the endless moving, the student loans, the cost of childcare etc etc.