To resent doctors who leave the profession?

[Prrambulate]

IN PARTICULAR, to take up lucrative management consultancy roles at the likes of McKinsey. I know three doctors among my uni cohort who have left the profession in the early-mid 30s, very close to or having trained at consultancy level for specialisms like ophthalmology, orthopaedics. It seems to be happening more often but that could just be my perception.

It’s frustrating because medical places are significantly capped in the UK, getting a place on a course is difficult, and training these doctors is costly. And then just to lose these qualified doctors at a time of dire need in the NHS is kind of maddening.

This, for a start. There are nowhere near enough jobs. Have you not seen all of the students who didn't get an F1 job last year? I know people who have ended up in Australia / NZ because they can't get a job here!

Anyway, I'm a doctor and I'm walking away. My family and my mental health come first. Resent me all you want, I promise I won't be losing any sleep over it! I can only apologise that my work experience at 16/17 didn't give me anywhere near a realistic representation of life in the NHS before I applied for my tax-funded training. Thank goodness we are not actually physically tied to working in the NHS (although, to be honest, it does feel like it when the options are either lump the NHS as it is (and move to wherever the powers that be decide we should train) / leave for the other side of the world / leave medicine).

Medicine is a job. A stressful one. People are allowed to change jobs.

As for those who walk away to more lucrative roles - 1. it sounds like they've already given years and years of service to the NHS, 2. I highly doubt they went into medicine with the view that they were going to take some state funded training away from someone else just to then leave (surely there'd be an easier route in than that!) and 3. are they not allowed to put themselves and their families first?

My non-medic friends genuinely laugh when I talk about my work conditions because they don't think they're true. 14 hour days without a drop of water or single loo break, being screamed at by multiple staff members / patients / relatives, doing our admin in a corner whilst sitting on a bin, going home to revise for an exam which costs hundreds of our own pounds to sit, it being the total norm to find a member of staff sobbing over something in a cupboard, fixed annual leave, job locations changing drastically days before we are due to start, being denied leave for our own weddings. Need I go on?

@Fluffywigg many F2 doctors will be unemployed this August. 1 in 4 has secured a training number. The rest have no job currently.

Weird, isn't it. We need more doctors. They are ready and trained, but no jobs in NHS for them. It's almost like the government doesn't want the NHS to continue

I burnt out of teaching,

I now have a moderate to serious mental health problem as a result.

If doctors are leaving before they develop serious mental health issues from burnout then at least they will still be able to work in some capacity

I can't. And many others who have burnt out can't.

Incoming doctors this year. 5 years of Uni. £100,000+ debt. And no job until 2 weeks before due to start. If lucky.

Don't you dare tell me they 'owe' anyone anything.

@mumsneedwine I have noticed you repeatedly on threads about junior doctors. You are always so supportive and so well-informed and I just wanted to say thank you from one very grateful junior doctor.

Say what you like, doctors are superb at advocating for themselves.

No burnout on that front as this thread shows.

If they are leaving at age 30 then if it was their first degree they will have been working as doctors for the last 7 years. Is this long enough? How long would be?

The figures that are usually quoted as the cost of training include doctors wages until they are "finished training" e.g. qualified as a consultant or GP. This would usually be at least 5 years after graduating for a GP, or at least 6-8 years for a consultant. Are employees in other industries considered to "owe" their employer for taking a wage? Particularly if they have been paid much less during this time than in other comparable countries or industries?

The cost of training figures also doesn't include costs of exams or professional fees as doctors need to pay these themselves.

At least they will owe the student loans company 5 years of course fees + interest for their study - perhaps they will have opportunity to pay more back if they have found a better salary elsewhere!

@butternutsquashes it takes so little to be informed. And I know that 'junior' doctors are the back bone of our NHS. And are treated like rubbish. £15.33 an hour is what a life is currently worth in this country.

@Supersimkin2 I'm not a doctor. I'm a teacher who supports students to become our future doctors.

Give me one good reason why I should continue doing this ? Our brightest and best can earn more elsewhere.

@mumsneedwine you need an awful lot of people working very hard indeed to pay the £150k each baby doc costs us.

Maybe they get thirsty at work too?

I just can’t see a problem with paying for your own training - everyone else does and they mostly aren’t as well salaried or pensioned.

Not an emotional issue, just boring ol’ social responsibility.

Do something else if you like - that’s what we’re discussing!

😀

I agree - the brightest and best kind of left the building already, didn’t they.

You get so many threads on here - most commonly about teachers - where at least one poster is guaranteed to say "if you don't like it, leave". Now here's a thread saying the opposite. I don't think "refreshing" is quite the word, but you know, it's different at least.

Hello? If everyone, or even a substantial minority, left for better work conditions there would be nobody doing those unpopular but indispensable roles - and if we're talking doctors, you can't just drag random bods off the street and hand them a scalpel. Or even a blank script. Well, when I say "can't"... they're part way to it already with physician associates, and don't expect it to stop there.

(Disclaimer: I am not employed in the healthcare industry, for a mercy.)

@Supersimkin2 just wow. You, in one comment, show the disgusting problem with the NHS. 'Baby doctor' ? You mean the person holding the bleep at 2am will be the first person to your cardiac arrest ? That baby ?

YABU. Being a doctor is a job. As with any job, people have every right to vote with their feet if the pay and conditions are not manageable, or not commensurate with the work they do. Same with teachers (I'm a teacher). Calling certain jobs vocations shouldn't mean that the people doing the job have to be selfless and altruistic to their own detriment. It's paid employment.

Oops, looks like I cross posted with one after all.

PS as a teacher the 'leave if you don't like it' comments have done really well. We are now 7 staff short, can't even get an applicant from the UK, and classes are having supply teachers long term.

Do the same with doctors, and people will die.

@Supersimkin2 the pubs shut soon. Hope you get home safely. All

PS as a teacher the 'leave if you don't like it' comments have done really well. We are now 7 staff short, can't even get an applicant from the UK, and classes are having supply teachers long term.

Do the same with doctors, and people will die.

Yes, apparently 40 000 people quit teaching last year. From what people on this thread seem to be saying though, unlike for teaching, there are people wanting to train as doctors but the number of places is capped? That's no good if the poor conditions mean they don't stay though.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft there are more doctors being trained than jobs being made available to them. Even though we need them. It's almost like they are trying to make people go private.

I can't really comment on dr's as ours seem to work well but I do get annoyed at dentists who are trained by the nhs then only treat private patients.

@likepebblesonabeach they also will repay £250k+. Not sure how they are not paying for their own training ??

NHS pay dropped considerably compared to 2009.

Doctor nearing the end of my career - plan to retire in the next two to four years. Expectations and pressures have increased enormously in the 32 years I’ve been qualified now expected to achieve equally good results in 96 year olds as 21 year olds it seems.
I went to uni (from a very poor background) with a full student grant finished my six year course with £1500 overdraft and took out a small personal loan to buy my first ever car. Today’s students can have £100000 in student loans.
You cannot imagine rage pressures inherent in the system unless you have lived them. If people get to the end of medical school or their training scheme (around 10 years in most specialities) and wish to move then that is their right. If society really valued doctors and paid for medical school then society could demand a certain length of service but it doesn’t so 🤷‍♀️ I currently work part time due to husbands serious illness only 36 hours for me!

My SIL went to a top Cambridge college to study medicine. Got married soon after graduation to a rich accountant and never did a day’s paid work in her life. Was the Cambridge place wasted on her? You tell me.