To resent doctors who leave the profession?

[Prrambulate]

IN PARTICULAR, to take up lucrative management consultancy roles at the likes of McKinsey. I know three doctors among my uni cohort who have left the profession in the early-mid 30s, very close to or having trained at consultancy level for specialisms like ophthalmology, orthopaedics. It seems to be happening more often but that could just be my perception.

It’s frustrating because medical places are significantly capped in the UK, getting a place on a course is difficult, and training these doctors is costly. And then just to lose these qualified doctors at a time of dire need in the NHS is kind of maddening.

Officially to give us a wider training experience. Unofficially as there's some really crappy hospitals that wouldn't get staff if we weren't forced to go there

Yep 80% part time is 40h/wk

Nhs England have cut the funding for foundation posts (the 2 years generic training before you choose you're speciality). They're hoping the local trusts can fudge the gap but they also have no money. They'll be lots of graduating med students without jobs to go into

Bad eg as fillings and crown etc are totally different pay bandings

Omg ! Dr of 30 plus yrs.. I have never considered it trauma bonding.. but of course it is! You have opened my eyes a bit. Thank you.

Worthy of our investment!

Lol

I paid for all of my own courses and exams since 2005, probably £2000 per year, and when i checked in 2018 I'd done an estimated £270k in unpaid overtime, so if i decided to emigrate, for the sake of fairness and justice, the public should be paying me £60k to leave by my reckoning.

Ond of the reasons the nhs is failing is good will has evaporated. An operation that overruns, or a couple of extra patients overbooked on a clinic.... Lots of us arent doing that anymore, if you multiply that by every doctor, it makes a huge impact.

What a toxic post. Doctors have higher student debt and pay for their own exams. The "training costs" you talk of are the salaries of qualified doctors below consultant status. Not everyone can be a consultant as there aren't enough places. When you talk sneeringly about "baby doctors" you're often taking about people with ten years of clinical experience. They're running A&E, doing the night shifts, operating on you... in no way are they babies. And you're saying their salaries are actually a cost they should pay back? Talk about twisted thinking! I'm not a doctor but my child is and I see at first hand the stresses. Every day he does complex operations for cancer and saves people's lives and yet you think he's a baby doctor who doesn't deserve to be paid? If he did decide to get out I would totally understand it. So many people say if you don't like the job don't do it, there are plenty who would love it. Well these are the ones who were planning to stay and you're knocking the stuffing out of them with this kind of talk. Medicine will be where teaching is now if the government don't wake up to the issues of pay and conditions... and that's not a good place. Change workload expectations and people would stay without more money. Get rid of OFSTED and I reckon more teachers would hang in there because of the reduced pressure as well!

Oh and by the way yes. You are being VERY unreasonable.

You do indeed, and there's 70million of them.

Rough maths is that each person pays £1300 over their working life to fund training doctors, £32.50 per year.

Seems like decent value to me.

I'm a near burnt-out doctor (consultant) too close to retirement to change career, and a lot of this thread echoes the discussions I frequently have with my colleagues and junior doctors. Leaving for Australia or NZ was commonplace but now I'm seeing more F2s leaving the profession entirely. They may well return but I won't hold my breath, and I don't blame them. If I knew then what I know now (about the politicised NHS, pay attrition, terrible working conditions etc) I'd do the same.

None of this actually matters, though.

It's supply and demand. Junior doctors have skills we need, and we aren't offering good enough money or conditions to keep all the ones we need. That means we either improve the money and conditions or they go. People are obviously free, like the OP, to be resentful. That's fine. But it doesn't change any of the fundamentals. There isn't any mechanism by which they put up and shut up having their real terms salaries eroded by a third in a couple of decades because some people have feelings about them not doing.

Fwiw I'm not a doctor and am in a role that pays less in real terms than it used to.

You need to look at other reasons why there aren't enough doctors, notably Brexit.

I'll just leave this here. Again.

All nhs workers have seen their salaries fall in real terms by 20-35%.

Average uk salaries have dropped by about 2.5%, however equivalent scientific, technical and medical professional salaries have actually increased in real terms.

I think the medical degrees should be offered free with the condition of a minimum number of years of service in the nhs and those that do not.wish to take that condition be charged the actual cost of the course.(which might be higher than the capped 9k)

I get it. I trained, paid for by the NHS for three years and some of cohorts after me me have gone straight into private work (with little experience). I think their should be a contract to say you have to work for the NHS for a period of time or pay your fees back.

However, I do think the NHS can be a tough place to work and the pay isn’t commensurate, so I do get it.

All three opthamologists I’ve met were cold and uncaring.

Not had time to read all the comments yet but all of those stating that there should be a time commitment to the NHS post qualification -

1. Most students will have paid at least £40,000 to study medicine (more if you add in intercalating which is increasingly necessary for competitive specialties, need loans to support living expenses (my family couldn’t afford to support me and it’s tricky to get a job around full time placement hours) - yes the taxpayer contributed towards training but it’s unfair to characterise this as the full picture. I also spend thousands of pounds a year being a doctor (NHS doctors pay for their indemnity insurance, college memberships, GMC memberships, professional exams (my last was about £800, my next will be nearly £2000) - last year DH and I spent nearly £5000 for the pleasure of being able to work and progress through training.
2. What would you have doctors like me do? I had such a horrific couple of years during my foundation period (horrible overstretched hospitals, no support etc) that I burnt out to the point when I was considering taking my own life to get out of it. Instead I left the NHS for a year, did a masters and some intensive therapy. I then went back into training and am now an NHS doctor again (admittedly part time which others on the thread also have had issues with). A vast proportion of my medical friends have similar stories. By then adding on a financial penalty (as not sure how else you would want this to work as surely you’re not recommending completely overriding working rights including leaving a job you’re not happy in) think of the pressure on doctors in this situation. Imagine working a job so toxic to your mental health knowing you can’t leave because you’ll be fined etc.

That’s true but if that is all NHS staff it probably doesn’t include medics. They managed to get themselves exempt from agenda for change so earn A LOT more than the rest of us comparable to the training, skills and responsibilities required for the job. In some medical roles that makes sense but not all. Psychiatrists for example do very little over and above psychiatric nurses but are paid more than three times as much on average. I knew one that was on nearly ten times as much (he’d boast about how much he earned).

My son is a Doctor. He has recently moved to Australia. In doing so he doubled his salary and escaped the NHS which is a terrible Orwellian employer. For example not allowing leave to attend a relatives funeral. Bullying staff who complain to the point where they leave and stifling anyone who makes any kind of adverse comment on the services provided. A lack of resources and work pressure means that the risk of errors is increased and this has personal consequences for a Doctor. In an increasingly litigious environment this is an increasing problem. If you cannot do your job, cannot provide appropriate care and will be held personally liable for any failure it is fully understandable you would want to move, either outside the profession or abroad.

I don’t know the answer. She stopped work mainly to play tennis (for fun). Kids came along later. This was pre-fees so she just had a good time at university, and thereby deprived somebody of a place to study medicine. But obviously she wasn’t to know that it would turn out that way.

So you have a cohort of people that have been living as students for six (or more) years, in a demanding course that does not readily allow part time work This cohort then spends a few years working for low wages with really high outgoings (training fees and frequent forced moves). They are then faced with the choice of staying in an unworkable system, or starting all over again with a massive debt in their late 20s / early 30s. No wonder the suicide rate in NHS staff is so high.

No debt as there course would be free - you could even offer free student lodgings

That's hardly a common example! Most people have to work for a living!

She did work for a while, though? If she has had her registration in doubt, or had a complaint that knocked her confidence, you may not know about it.

Surely this is what happens after 14 years of austerity. All public sectors are struggling with recruitment. Why would you stay when conditions and pay are so bad. It's no different to schools, universities, civil service. The only difference is that doctors can probably get more lucrative opportunities elsewhere and are in a stronger positionto leave. Change the system, conditiond and the salaries and people will stay.the impact of austerity and tory britain is real....

I mean debt for not completing obligations.

You create a situation in which a person might not be fit to continue working ( due to poor work conditions ) but can't leave ( due to the threat of a huge debt plus having to start over again with training )

Do you want to live in a country where people aren't allowed to change their mind about their career choice after training? Or compelled to stay in a job for years when it is destroying their family life and mental health? Or are those things ok as long as they don't apply to the job you do?

People who do important, necessary or life-saving jobs should be entitled to the same employment rights ( including the right to work where they want to, when they want to and how much they want to, including not at all) as everybody else. If they are not allowed these rights, don't be surprised if people stop training to do those jobs.