To resent doctors who leave the profession?

[Prrambulate]

IN PARTICULAR, to take up lucrative management consultancy roles at the likes of McKinsey. I know three doctors among my uni cohort who have left the profession in the early-mid 30s, very close to or having trained at consultancy level for specialisms like ophthalmology, orthopaedics. It seems to be happening more often but that could just be my perception.

It’s frustrating because medical places are significantly capped in the UK, getting a place on a course is difficult, and training these doctors is costly. And then just to lose these qualified doctors at a time of dire need in the NHS is kind of maddening.

Maybe look at why they’re leaving.
NHS salaries and working conditions simply can’t compete with other sectors or other countries.
Why should doctors subsidise the healthcare system by accepting below market rates.
Im an anaesthetic consultant who left to oversea, I’m paid vastly more with significantly better conditions and much much happier. I don’t think I could have really remained in the NHS.

What speciality is this?

Ffs.

It has consultants and junior doctors and nurses clearly labelled on the graph.

Consultants have done the worst out of any group in the nhs, junior doctors second worst. AfC have done less badly, but still much worse than the popukation as a whole.

Do private hospitals have to reimburse the NHS government for the taxpayer trained doctors they take out of the NHS? They bloody well should.

Issue is then they wouldn't be able to be competitive, or too expensive for most people to afford.

Would this make any practical difference when the student finance set up means many won't be able to pay the loan back anyway as it stands now? It anything getting a better paid job elsewhere means we are going to get more money back in repayments.

The interest rate on student loans is 7%. The average doctor graduates with 70k of student loan debt.

On the current rates of pay new medical graduates aren't realistically going to be able to clear this student loan due to a combination of 5 year loan period, high rates of interest and NHS pay scales. Even if they do earn highly later in their career the interest rates will have massively increased their loan before then, and many aren't going to be able to pay this back.

Also, how long is long enough? Leaving medicine in your 30s means at least 7 years working in the NHS after graduation - is this long enough? How long is long enough? Can you name another country that does this?

Wow thanks so much for the career advice! NHS doctor in my early 30s here. Definitely gonna look up some consultancy jobs, the pay and benefits for McKinsey sounds amazing! Been thinking about quitting for so long!

You'd be better off directing your anger at what is making the doctors want to leave the NHS...

This is so true. People often don't take responsibility for their own health and the consequences are more demands on the already overloaded system. Now the funding for GPs is so low that newly qualified GPs are struggling for work while ARRS funding is used for lesser qualified staff such a physicians associates with a mere 2 years of training at University and no substantial clinical experience.

She did work for 12 months, but not as a doctor.
And no, I can assure you that her confidence in herself has never been shaken in any way at all.

Treat them better then. It’s really that simple.

You can’t treat people like shit for years on end with no consequences.
Underpaid, overworked, treated like shit by managers and the government, treated like shit by the general public……

We’re seeing the consequences of that now in all areas of the NHS.

Someone added on here

"At 17 you don't know what being a doctor means"

Really ?

There are plenty of TV programmes, films, Internet, most people have visited a doctor or nurse in their lifetime (not including third world countries)
Before the Internet, people understood what doctors did for a living

As someone who chose medicine at 17 largely based off TV and two weeks of work experience.

I can safely say I had no idea what I was signing up for.

There is truth to that statement though. Yes, everyone knows the basics about what being a doctor involves but they don’t know the ins and outs, they don’t know the daily grind details, they don’t know the realities of the job. It’s like everyone thinks they know what being a paramedic involves because they’ve seen it on the telly. They really, really don’t.

Hilarious. Do you think watching the Bill is like being a cop? Do you think any of us had ANY idea what we were getting into?

Huh? Do you generally advise people to choose careers based on how they’re depicted on television?

No 17yo is turning up at medical school and surprised that they’ve got to speak to sick people…

To pick up on a few points from the OP and within some of the responses:

• Part time - for many doctors their ‘part time’ hours are the same or more than what most would call ‘full time’.

• Part time - society does not support doctors, nurses or those in other sectors who start work early. Nurseries often do not open until 7:30am. For those who need to be in work before 8am this is not feasible. Especially with some people working over an hour from where they live. Childcare is one of the reasons many people need to work part time.

• The NHS is underfunded and under-resourced. Many doctors work above and beyond what is expected of them without appropriate financial remuneration - people moan relentlessly about GPs without understanding their roles and without understanding how a GP practice works. Hospitals have been underfunded for years and in real terms doctors are being paid less than they were 10 years ago after years and years of pay freezes.

• covid - lots of doctors were burnt out during covid and subsequently due to the workloads (which is on top of the above points!). The royal college of anaesthetists looked at this at the height of the pandemic: https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/policy-communications/policy-public-affairs/consultation-responses/health-select-committee-inquiry#:~:text=The%20first%20survey%5B4%5D%2C,result%20of%20COVID%2D19%20stress.

• Only last week were doctors fighting to keep mental health support open to themselves and other colleagues after NHS England decided to slash funding. They have since done a u-turn on this: https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-mental-health-support-staff-3006360

• To quote “Doctors’ experiences of stress and burnout in the workplace are now worse than they’ve ever been, according to a GMC report published today.” https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/stress-on-doctors-reaches-all-time-high?utm_campaign=289022_Stress+Awareness+Month+email+1+Juniors+UK&utm_medium=email&utm_source=The+British+Medical+Association+%28Comms+Engagment%29&dm_i=7IPW%2C670E%2C199EVN%2CPX8D%2C1&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2VYkY5_p5hTZHm4uqVH7QncesKoy7-y5AEBcBeAbGv2fFHK9HSWtVi73g_aem_ASRhGJyNSVHtaOA-wZw9kdbbEiEOTGJasWTHPGarYe2689S1OwI9GzG--ni4JbRIlNcj3NeMIDEnKWswDfo741Zv

• The public moan and complain, treat doctors with such disdain, slate them and other health care professionals.

• Patients demand appointments for non-urgent things and make formal complaints when they don’t get their own way. It takes time away from clinical work, which in turn means less appointments. I’m not saying people shouldn’t complain but there are people with incredibly unrealistic expectations.

• The public repeatedly votes for a government that starves the NHS of funds whilst simultaneously handing out service contacts to their private sector mates like sweets… then moan about how it is not working for them (refer to my previous point).

• Training programmes - Qualified doctors who have made it through uni and working as doctors on training programs for specialty training are often used as service provision without much formal training or teaching. Instead they are moving across the country to various areas to complete said training away from their support networks paying out of their own pockets for courses (because their study budget won’t cover it) and studying for exams in their non-working time.

• Other additional projects - these are in addition to the training and studying mentioned above. Audits and quality improvement projects that doctors have to do. Projects that benefit the hospitals, patients and the NHS yet doctors have to do in their own time because (1) their job requires them to do it and (2) the job doesn’t actually allocate them much (if any!) time to do them.

• As for the ‘cost’ if training doctors - last time I checked it was some random made-up number with much training actually provided by other doctors who don’t get paid themselves for much of the time they offer to teaching medical students/other doctors.

Doctors didn’t sign up for any of this when they decided on medical school… way back when they chose their GCSEs and worked hard to get their A/A* grades… way back when they chose their A-levels and worked hard to get their A’s… way back when they supplemented those grades with extra-curricular activities because even those A grades weren’t enough…. way back when they started uni and signed up to a 5/6 year degree that meant (for the vast majority of them) actually attending uni 5 days per week, attending placements that were an hour away… way back when they struggled financially at uni for 5/6 years instead of 3/4 thinking that their wages would mean they might not have to worry about bills…

The whole system has changed around them. They didn’t sign up for this. And like everyone else they are entitled to change their minds. They only live once, they do not owe their lives to the NHS, the only person they owe anything to are themselves.

So good luck to them doctors getting those jobs they might be happier in, where they are remunerated appropriately for their time and energy and where they get more chance of a better work-life balance, where they get family time without being worried about the repercussions of every decision they make in an understaffed and underfunded workforce.

So to summarise OP - yes YABU.

This has always been the case for developing countries which spend a great deal of funds training their doctors, only for them to go to western countries.

I’m sorry you have been treated to badly. It’s awful that you are not being supported better. If you chose to walk away that is completely understandable. Good luck with whatever you choose. Good luck with your treatment and recovery.

This post tell me that you have absolutely no idea what it's like being a doctor. None at all.

I find it frustrating when people have had a huge amount of state funded training and don't fully use it. I've got a friend who trained in hospital, then had a child, swapped and retrained as a gp. Has only ever worked 2-3 days a week since qualifying and now having had a second child does not plan to work again.

A huge amount of resource has been provided to her to train, there ought to be some form of repayment plan for those who then choose not to work

I resent the ones who blackmail our trust to pay way over the rate card to cover shifts.

It does include medics. It’s on the graph, theirs has decreased more than other staff. The 35% they are asking for is pay restoration. They aren’t going to get it but pay restoration is a reasonable starting bid in a negotiation. It’s isn’t their fault the Tories have reduced their pay by so much in real terms.

Much of that "training" was actually under - supervised service provision. Formal training is provided byb other doctors, often on their own time. Other costs she wound have paid for.

That's very unusual then, and not representative of what's going on with the NHS.