Do toxic people know they’re toxic?

[Betternowthannever]

Just that! Do they know they are toxic? Do they intentionally hurt others or are they a victim of circumstance? Did their upbringing or an experience make them this way?
My DF’s family are highly toxic, as was he. I’m just trying to work it out in my head…. Do they know or are they so engrained in this life/ behaviour that it’s just normal for them? Like a pattern repeating itself through the generations?

I think it depends. There are all different kinds of toxic behaviour and all different types of people. I once knew someone who knew that they were toxic and revelled in it. They had a sadistic streak and got off on deliberately hurting people. And they didn’t care or have any desire to change.

I used to have some toxic traits, thankfully not that many, but no, I didn’t intentionally behave that way. I didn’t realise at the time how I came across, I didn’t understand myself I suppose. Now I’m older, wiser and more self aware and reflective, plus I just don’t give a shiny shit about the majority of things I used to care about, so that helped!

I think every single person has or has had some traits in the past that could be considered toxic. It takes a properly emotionally mature person to recognise it in themselves. Those sorts of behaviours are consequences of upbringing and life experiences, they don’t necessarily make someone a bad person.

No I don't think they do. When I think of people whom I think of as toxic I think they think they do no wrong and anyone who criticises them is the problem.

I agree with you @YoureALizardHarry11

It's interesting as I look back and see how I had traits that I didn't see in myself then but I've grown up and become more self aware and this seems unusual.

Look on MN. The number of posters who say the most cutting, snide comments clearly meant to upset someone is frighteningly high.

They must know. Their INTENTION must be to upset. Are they thinking 'yeah this is a great comment. It'll really piss them off/upset them'? And 'oooo this is a clever way to get a nasty comment in'

What's going on in them that makes them enjoy doing this?

They'll always make excuses by blaming other people

98% of people are toxic due to conditioning, environment and ACEs.
They will not recognise toxicity and are just trying to get their own needs met.

1-2% of people are sociopaths and psychopaths, and yes they have capacity to inflict pain and suffering and often enjoy doing so. These traits can run in families and can be diagnosed.

Counselling can help if you have been impacted. Choosing to keep yourself at a safe distance and recognising your responses and patterns can be really helpful. Look up the drama triangle.

@everyone thank you for the different perspectives. From what I gather, self awareness is lacking in people we deem toxic.
I wonder is that due to background and upbringing?
Self awareness seems to limit toxicity. I know I have some traits of my relatives and fight hard to control them but sometimes they appear …. Usually if I’m stressed or I feel things are out if my control.
I hate this about myself.

It kind of helps me a bit knowing my family are unaware, at some level, of the impact of their actions. I still think I need to distance myself to preserve my own MH, but it helps to know it’s not all intentional.

@Polishedshoesalways thank you. I will look up the drama triangle for sure.

On reflection, I’ve come to the conclusion that my father probably falls into the 1-2% that are aware of their actions. I think he knew his actions hurt us and he had a major superiority complex! He was 100% narcissistic and enjoyed the power trip.

I’m hoping, after reading this thread, my relatives are more unaware but caught in a generational cycle. It still hurts and I still need to protect myself. I’m glad I’ve got out of that cycle and I am aware I have some traits myself that need managing!

Thank you.

Even if they did, I’d guess that really toxic people wouldn’t care.

"Every single toxic person I've met can switch it on and off when they please"

Yes, this is a great point, and true of the three toxic people I referred to earlier. It was one of the aspects that finally pushed me to lose tolerance for it. However much they protest they are the victim, and can't control/are not responsible for eg screaming at you, they don't scream at other people randomly. In fact they are quite conscious of reputation management.

I'll never forget my MIL having a seemingly uncontrollable panic/screaming meltdown at my DH (this was a weekly occurrence, any time anything was going well, or there was attention away from her) this time, It was for something totally random, like she'd lost her keys and he was trying to get her to think calmly about where they could be. She was screeching at him hysterically, calling him Hitler (this was one of her favourites, along with saying she was like Jesus on the Cross, that she wished she was dead, and that he'd ruined her life from being born)).... anyway, mid flow, a friend of hers calls. She answers in a nearly totally normal voice, then starts screaming when she puts the phone down again.

She, and the other two people have a string of broken relationships, professional positions etc behind them. They end up very isolated, but it's always everybody else's fault. People just don't understand.....

I think 'unaware' is a slightly too passive description.... I think 'refuse to see, because the truth about themselves would be unbearably uncomfortable' would be more accurate..... I don't think my MIL consciously calculated and decided to behave horrifically.... I think at least parts of her genuinely believed she was the victim. But I also think she allowed herself to indulge in awful behaviours, using twisted logic and self-delusion to rationalise how that was ok..... primarily by telling herself other people's treatment of her was unfair, nobody understood her challenges, nobody appreciated her as they should, her life was a failure, all she'd had in her life was pain... or that she was the victim.... always the victim. She was only ever defending, when she was persecuting...(by her perception)

Some possibly are aware some won’t be. There seems to have been a huge increase in people suffering from main character syndrome. They are just unable to see anyone else’s needs.

May I ask: how did you realise? And how did you change? Did your friendships change?

I keep running into relationship difficulties and I’m trying to see the big picture. It’s not easy.

What kind of relationship difficulties and what do people tell you about it, Glowing?

Thinking back to the people I've considered toxic over the years then I think it is a mix. Some must've known what they did/were doing, even if they continued to lie to cover it up - the blushes when caught out shit stirring, the duper's delight/smirks...and the abrupt change in behaviour when they see someone.

One person (family member - keep at arm's length) tells stories about interactions with other people where even in their own story they come across really badly and they just can't see it. Zero consideration for anyone else's needs or what a CF they have been.

I used to have a colleague who openly admitted to me that she would start a rumour about another colleague and see how long it took to get back to her - I still don't know if she recognised how toxic it was, I know she thought it was funny and thought she could get away with lots of things/everyone had to pander to her needs because she suffered badly with depression at times.

I've definitely done/said things I now consider to be toxic - at the time I possibly though I was defending/protecting myself/giving as good as I got/it was normal and fine (e.g. negative gossip) or justified in some way. I don't now. They make me cringe but all I can do is learn from them. I also try to learn from other people (both ways).

I suspect most toxic people just think they are winning at life.

I don’t think most people have enough self awareness to know how they come across, regardless of their personality traits.

As I've already stated ...some ppl are called toxic but infact have MH as I do ...I got help some cope better ..I wish ppl would understand MH abit more

i fell in love with my husband and I realised the way I was going on was killing him. I realised when I seen he was the shadow of the man he was before he met me and the only difference in his life was me. A 6ft, strapping man who was literally on his knees crying over me. I had no empathy before I met him and every relationship was about what I could get out of it.

I had no friends, I couldn’t keep them as again, it was all about what benefit I could extract from it.

in hindsight, it was derived from a co dependent upbringing and I let that influence carry into my 20s.

I recognise now the relationship being a victim and also a perpetrator. I was the victim of a lot of abuse but then in turn I perpetrated it. It’s not an excuse or a justification, but an explanation at least.

I was very unhappy in myself then - looking and getting a lot of skin deep attention from men, lapping it up, needing validation etc but it really is because of insecurity and just not being a nice person.

I still have traits that I work on every single day but I am nowhere near the horrible person I used to be.

toxic people have demons but it’s up to them to recognise and deal with, you can’t make them nor is it anyone else’s responsibility. My honest opinion from being toxic in the past is don’t waste your time on someone like that because they’ll only change if they want to and recognise what’s wrong within themselves

@Hatinthislife

Thank you so much for this response.
It’s more that I’m trying to look at myself and see whether there are parts of myself that are toxic, and creating some situations.

It took me years to see just how alcoholic and repressed my parents were, in particular I had a difficult relationship with my mother. I have poor boundaries, leading to resentment, and I think maybe I’m projecting some stuff on to others. Often my friends disappoint me.

So I’m trying to be more reflective, but even if you look in a mirror you see everything back to front!

@LittleGlowingOblong i would have honest conversations with people you trust. In a lot of situations now I ask myself how would I feel if the shoe was on the other foot? I know it’s a basic cliche but it’s a cliche for a reason. The fact you’re even questioning it is an amazing sign of self awareness and being a good person x

I don't think they do. I think a previous bullying manager just thought we were all difficult and intransigent, and he had to be a strong manager I response. But his people skills were appalling and he didn't listen at all. He had little to no self-awareness as far as I could tell.

I would have thought that if he understood how his behaviour caused others to react, he'd have tried better at improving negotiation skills and so on, rather than just issuing orders which caused resentment.

I could see a lot of my mother in the way he behaved. She once came home from work saying, "Sam [not actual name] said I can have a bullying manner, but I don't do I?" I did not know what to say - my head was screaming, "Yes! Yes, you do! This shouldn't be news to you!" But my sense of self-preservation was also telling me she clearly didn't believe it, and this was also the woman to whom I owed 6 stitches after she assaulted me (i don't think she'd have called it assault, because that's a serious thing...) So in the end, probably not after as long a delay as it felt, I pointed out thst in harassment training we'd had at work, it's the effect on the person that counts, rather than the intention of person being complained about. But I think it was a genuine surprise to her anyone would consider her a bully, whereas I was thinking, what took them so long?

Yes, I've seen the delusion that it's self defence or justified revenge myself.

I've met a few women over the years who've smiled and said, "I always get my own way" and I've always wondered whether they realise how much they're hated.