Do toxic people know they’re toxic?

[Betternowthannever]

Just that! Do they know they are toxic? Do they intentionally hurt others or are they a victim of circumstance? Did their upbringing or an experience make them this way?
My DF’s family are highly toxic, as was he. I’m just trying to work it out in my head…. Do they know or are they so engrained in this life/ behaviour that it’s just normal for them? Like a pattern repeating itself through the generations?

I definitely know I've been toxic in the past, I've grown up and can now recognise the behaviour. I don't think I knew it at the time

Are we talking about sociopath toxic or everyday toxic?

People who are psychopaths probably have very little self awareness and no clue whereas other types of toxic have some self awareness, think they can control it but actually can't.

I did I got help I suffer GAD you have to understand not everyone means to be toxic …..mine as I said before is an anxiety disorder

I think most people (including myself) lack self awareness and the image they hold of themselves is very different to the way they come across to others.
For example, people who declare themselves empaths are often, in fact, very self centered and people who describe themselves as pushovers generally bulldoze others into their point of view.

No.

Quite often. They know when they're being sneaky, though.

That's great you recognised and identified what was going on and subsequently reached out, I'd say that's the opposite of toxic
Glad you've got some coping mechanisms and able to talk

Do they know they are toxic? Yes
Do they intentionally hurt others? Yes
Are they a victim of circumstance? Yes
Did their upbringing or an experience make them this way? Yes

I don’t agree “they intentionally hurt others “

I think that they often do know. I have watched toxic people conceal their toxic traits when it suits them or they think someone is watching. People who can turn on the shit or sugar must be able to distinguish between the two and choose when to be one or the other.

This is really interesting. I have wondered about for example if a guy is a sulker to get his own way, does he actively think hey I shall be sulky today to ensure my girlfriend does as I wish or is it instead some sort of learned behavior that subconsciously gets results?
I have a colleague who in my opinion is an extremely manipulative unpleasant arsehole. I am sure he is deliberate in his behaviour. Once noticed cannot be unseen. He actually frightens me in a non physical way.

The label might be modern but the substance of what we’re talking about isn’t. In old money toxic people were “mad”; “not right in the head”; “very difficult”, “a right bastard” or just “really quite nasty” depending on their specific tone and flavour.
but you knew that anyway. No, they mostly don’t know- they think everyone thinks like they do.

Me too, @Cas112 II addressed my MH issues and also recognized that my Dad’s side of the family was incredibly toxic and I’d learnt some behaviors from him.

Luckily my cousins seem to have recognized this as well and we’re building good relationships between ourselves now that we’re middle-aged. Our parents were always falling out and fighting.

Oh yes, I definitely think people know when they’re being manipulative. I wasn’t always the nicest person as a teen - definitely a ‘mean girl’ at times. I’ve also been manipulative in relationships when I was younger. I think it gave me a feeling of importance and power, and as my DM was a textbook narcissist, I think I had absorbed or modelled some of that behaviour. It’s not nice to admit, and I probably haven’t behaved like that since my early 20s.

I think I’m sometimes behaving in a toxic way and I know when I do it, my mum is narcissistic (I know this term gets bandied around a lot but she really is) and I know I have adopted some of her traits through my upbringing. I’m working very very hard to keep it in check and have therapy when possible (finances tight at the moment) and do mindfulness etc. in the moment when I do something toxic it’s almost like I’m two people: one person who is out of control and doing the bad thing and one person who’s conscious and watching it and going no, no, please stop! But the toxic one takes over when I’m too disregulated, so I also have to watch my stress levels and not do too many things because being too busy is another thing which makes it hard for me to control the toxic patterns.

So in my case I know! Whenever I’ve had a “narcissistic fit” as I call it, I apologize and do repair with the people who have been involved, and work harder to make it not happen again. I feel terrible afterwards. I feel like it’s this horrible shadow side of me, the nasty survival tricks I acquired to survive with a narcissist mum.

but my mum has NO CLUE. She is a full on toxic narcissist. Everything is always someone else’s fault, nothing is even good enough for her and the whole world revolves around her needs and if it doesn’t, she will let other people feel her wreath through throwing tantrums, giving silent treatment, witholding affection and attention etc etc.

Today is her birthday, we are celebrating her next weekend (according to her own wish) and for this birthday I have prepares a very nice gift and a surprise, this morning I wrote her a happy birthday message and said I would call later when we were all around so we could all FaceTime and congratulate her together. Both kids had sports activities and then had friends over, they are quite young so I was occupied until the playdates both left taking care of them all. By 3pm I received a message saying not to bother calling because she was too hurt and disappointed that I couldn’t spend five minutes on my own mum on her birthday and that if I called she wouldn’t pick up.

I explained the situation to her and tried to call her several times but she wouldn’t pick up.

I know she will still be cold and distant to me next time I see her and she thinks she has a right to, because apparently not calling before 3pm is a crime. So no, she has no idea she is toxic and I realize she never will change.

but to some of her more distant friends and relatives she never behaves like this. Only the closest people get to see her full on toxic side.

So I guess it all depends on the relationship and the individual person.

I think it's often very hard for them to see, because it's normal, learned behaviour from family members. My friends family is what I would call 'toxic' they are all up in each others business constantly, have all these complex expectations and rules and are just so intense, it causes a lot of fallouts. But honestly, I think if you tried to explain to them that it doesn't have to be like that, that it's not normal, they genuinely wouldn't believe you. It's all they've known for generations.

Like other I see the toxic traits in myself, I struggle at work often to accept that people doing things differently from me doesn't mean they are wrong. I have to actively manage my responses sometimes.

I think toxic behaviours also often require two people. I have a friend who is lovely but a people pleaser. Her husband was controlling and eventually the marriage ended. He met someone new. The first time he tried the same behaviour with her he got well told and ten years later they are happy together and the coparenting relationship with my friend is going well.

I think it's often very hard for them to see, because it's normal, learned behaviour from family members.

@Foxblue Yes, that’s just how it was with my Dad and his siblings. They thought it was normal to be hyper-critical of each other, constantly falling out, etc.

But, as @helpfulperson says, he was different with my Mum. He was still difficult due to his lifelong MH issues, but never the way he was with his side of the family. She wouldn’t tolerate it. Both his siblings went through ugly divorces though. 🙁

Toxic isn't a term with a precise meaning. The opening post makes it seem like there is some specific poisonous thing that inheres in some individuals. Which is lazy and stigmatising
I'm sure that some people do have 'toxic' effects on some of the other people in their life -- for a wide range of completely different reasons. But to represent those people as intrinsically 'toxic' seems, well, ... toxic.

I really don't think this is true. I am quite sure I'm not toxic to anyone. I might not be people's cup of tea, they may find they don't have shared interests with me, or not sociable enough, or overly academic, or a bit of a killjoy, or a bit tight with my own money etc etc. But I'm not toxic. Never ever had a serious fight with anyone, or any relationship that has become distanced or been severed by the other person. I have good (but not close) relationships with everybody in my family, even get along with my ex husband. Nobody avoids me, because I'm too anti-social for anybody to need to. Similarly, there are loads of people in my life who I would never describe as toxic - even if I don't particularly get along with them.

Toxic , to me anyway, is a different and far more severe thing than simply having traits others might not like. To me, it means your wellbeing and sense of self are severely corroded by being close to this person, and trying to meet their needs - long term. .

I've encountered two truly toxic people in my life. And one other who was had an intermittently toxic effect, due to mental health issues, the first two would never have accepted they were toxic. The last yes, in her periods of wellness, was able to understand (and deeply regret) the effect she had when she was not well. Either way, they were all corrosive to my wellbeing and sense of self, and after years of trying to find a way of meeting their needs, I gave up and cut contact. My life improved significantly each time.

@GoodOldEmmaNessI apologise if I offended anyone and didn’t mean to over generalise or stigmatise people.
I suppose a bit of background would help. I grew up in a very emotionally and physically abusive household, so my idea of toxic may be different to some.
My toxic/abusive father died recently and his family have tried to get back in contact with me. I’m finding it very difficult right now. They have always been very manipulative, lied constantly, stirred up trouble for no reason, blamed everyone but themselves for their problems.
Im trying to figure out if they intentionally hurt me or is not in their control.
To me, they are toxic.

No I don’t think toxic people are aware of how dysfunctional they truly are. It’s behaviour learnt from family/school/etc.

@financialcareerstuff yes, toxic to me me means exactly that, thank you for putting so eloquently. Someone who corrodes your sense of self, that struck a chord!
I hope you managed to overcome the effects of their toxicity.

It's a pattern behaviour they have learned in order to get what they want (but not in the best way!) This is usually unconscious, learned from people around them including their families, and difficult to change the pattern. They might know it's not ok to treat people a certain way, but not have the skills to behave in a different way, and not be able to or want to do the work to change that.

Yes, exactly. I don’t think it’s in any way a helpful label. As used on here it means ‘someone who behaves badly to me’, rather than meeting some objective criterion of toxicity.