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Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.

1000 replies

Mavenss · 26/04/2024 18:59

We will be able to see which MPs are for or against assisted dying.

This Monday 29th April, assisted dying will be debated in Westminster for the first time in two years. An absolutely incredible 203,000 people added their name to the government petitionspearheaded by Dame Esther Rantzen to make this happen, creating the largest ever parliamentary petition on assisted dying.

There will not be a vote on Monday, but this debate will be the last time before the General Election that MPs have an opportunity to show you that they are listening to our calls for safe and compassionate choice at the end of life. A majority of voters in every constituency support an assisted dying law.

The debate starts at 4:30pmand you can watch it live online through the UK parliament website.

YABU- it’s a silly idea, why are government even debating it? Assisted dying is a terrible idea.

YANBU - I support the debate and assisted dying (under the agreed circumstances)

I’m interested in the MN feedback here.

Petition: Hold a parliamentary vote on assisted dying

This petition calls for the Government to allocate Parliamentary time for assisted dying to be fully debated in the House of Commons and to give MPs a vote on the issue. Terminally ill people who are mentally sound and near the end of their lives shoul...

https://ca.engagingnetworks.app/page/email/click/2162/7065208?email=Rc3cp5aS0CkDfkUdrpdRoZmQCvNVYxKY&campid=9YL2yT2RiPe15xl1A%2FXc2A==

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Mavenss · 27/04/2024 10:12

DeathStarCanteenGal · 27/04/2024 10:08

The Scottish Parliament will debate and vote on assisted dying this year. On actual legislation, not just a petition
just shows how people on here tend to conflate England and the UK

I suppose because it’s being discussed in UK government and parliament, and is referenced as being about the U.K.?

Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.
OP posts:
LaurelBanks · 27/04/2024 10:14

DeathStarCanteenGal · 27/04/2024 10:08

The Scottish Parliament will debate and vote on assisted dying this year. On actual legislation, not just a petition
just shows how people on here tend to conflate England and the UK

X-posted with you, @DeathStarCanteenGal.

Also interesting too how the Isle of Man seems invisible. A crown dependency right in the middle of the British Isles, between N.I., Scotland, England and Wales, and Ireland, waving 'hello!'

OP posts:
Mavenss · 27/04/2024 10:19

Dignity in Dying.org.uk

https://features.dignityindying.org.uk/australia-choice/index.html

"In Australia, we have now legislated for compassionate and safe end-of-life choice in every state."

"I hope that parliamentarians in Westminster and Holyrood learn from our approach.

End-of-life care in Australia is now safer and fairer than ever before.
**
Crucially, none of the fears that were put forward as reasons not to change the law have been realised. The status quo was broken. Assisted dying works.

Australia: A blueprint for choice at the end of life

Every Australian state has approved an assisted dying law.

https://features.dignityindying.org.uk/australia-choice/index.html

OP posts:
anyolddinosaur · 27/04/2024 10:37

I'd like assisted suicide so I can choose when I want to end my life. I've seen people die badly and another when the doctor, with the full knowledge and consent of next of kin and their adult child, hastened death by generous use of pain relief. We treat animal deaths better than human deaths, it's time to change.

I'm old enough to potentially be one of the ones people think might be "pressurised" - stop telling me I'm too feeble to make a decision and let me choose.

DeathStarCanteenGal · 27/04/2024 11:37

@Mavenss the debate in the Westminster parliament will not be about the UK - because this, as part of healthcare is devolved to Scotland
for those concerned about the involvement of the Scottish Government, the bill is being brought forward by Lib Dem MSP Liam McArthur as a members bill (the equivalent of a private members bill in Westminster)
it has cross party support from a number of MSPs but the Scottish Government is not involved in the legislation. MSPs from the different parties will all be given a free vote on it

MoonCircles · 27/04/2024 11:55

I personally have 2 friends who currently have elderly parents in hospital. Both went in with painful but treatable acute conditions, but in both cases the hospitals are refusing to operate, because they’re old. My friend’s father’s ‘care’ involves being occasionally turned in bed. He cannot manage eating himself, they bring him his meals and then when he hasn’t eaten them, take them away again. He needs feeding, but they aren’t helping him. It seems in both cases the medics have opted to just let them die slowly, and in pain, rather than treat them. No dementia in either case, so fully aware of the situation. It seems to me that euthanasia is already here, just not in a humane way.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/04/2024 12:01

MintyFurball · 26/04/2024 23:40

Very poor alternative care is a form of coercion.

It can be, yes, especially if a refusal of euthanasia was used to justify a lesser standard of care on the basis that "we tried to help and they didn't want it"

And let's not kid ourselves it couldn't happen ...

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 12:08

The34Bus · 26/04/2024 22:23

This would also influence my thinking too. I hear and believe the horror stories, but am also certain that older and disabled people would be coerced into taking this action to “help” their families.

I don’t know what the answer is, but am unconvinced any country currently has the right balance.

Australia?

OP posts:
Findwen · 27/04/2024 13:56

I personally find it hard to see how it is meaningfully different from abortion. I get the coercion concerns but surely they are equally applicable to vulnerable pregnant women too and yet we seem to manage.

I should be able to decide when the quality of my life is too low to carry on, regardless of others judgement. If for me, that means when I can no longer crochet - then who are you to decide that is not a good enough reason ?

SeanBeansMealDeal · 27/04/2024 14:09

GreatGateauxsby · 26/04/2024 23:09

I dont think its a "silly idea" and was initially pro

However, i have come to the conclusion all forms of euthanasia should continue to be banned.
As demonstrated in other countries even with safeguards and regs it is hugely open to abuse.

It is also a feminist issue (which i had NO idea about) and that was the bit that tipped me over into the No camp.
Its going to be Sue and Kate not Dave and Bob who are heavily pressured and agree to "do the right thing" and shuffle off quietly because the grandkids need money for uni and are they REALLY such selfish bitches they want to live another 5 years when they have stage 3 cancer and their best years are behind them. It will be protrayed as a noble act but in reality its about intergenerational wealth gap and getting your inheritance now now.

Given the population crisis we are facing i believe the government will 100% legalise it in the next decade if they reasonably can.

Edited

That's a very good point, actually.

Women also live longer than men, BUT studies have shown that women on average tend to have more 'bad' years of illness than men before they die, so not really an advantage. This is why care and nursing homes have such a disproportionately high number of female residents.

If it became government policy to actively offer/advertise/promote 'assisted dying' to everybody in care/nursing homes - maybe with emotive coercion tactics about how 'don't be selfish, you've had your time', 'you're taking money and resources that your grandchildren need' etc. - that would automatically be pressuring far more women into it than men.

SeanBeansMealDeal · 27/04/2024 14:16

anyolddinosaur · 27/04/2024 10:37

I'd like assisted suicide so I can choose when I want to end my life. I've seen people die badly and another when the doctor, with the full knowledge and consent of next of kin and their adult child, hastened death by generous use of pain relief. We treat animal deaths better than human deaths, it's time to change.

I'm old enough to potentially be one of the ones people think might be "pressurised" - stop telling me I'm too feeble to make a decision and let me choose.

I'm not just talking about older people being pressurised; how do we know it could never become law that you have to 'play your part for the climate, economy and society' and be compulsorily 'assisted' to die on your 90th/80th/70th/60th/50th birthday? Possibly not even forcibly killed, but what if there are 'public information campaigns' designed to tell everybody what a selfish, nasty, evil, despicable person you are for getting old and wanting to live until your natural death. Ageism is already alive and well and actively ignored (sometimes promoted) by the government and all authorities.

It might sound unrealistic in the current political climate, but things can change very quickly indeed - and governments almost always abuse power.

Rinoachicken · 27/04/2024 14:19

If you allow assisted dying for mental health (because my body my choice) then you may as well thrown the whole mental health act out the window.

Currently, in this country, if someone is attempting to take their life, or making plans to do so, we take legal steps to detain and prevent them doing so on the basis that they are lacking the capacity at that time to make the best choices for themselves.

If you then legislate that actually, people must be allowed to end their life even when mentally unwell (as in recent cases we are starting to see from overseas) then you can no longer legally detain and prevent other people from doing so.

So if your loved one is suicidal, there will be no more calling mental health services and having them sectioned - on what basis? Their body their life their choice right?

I have been very mentally unwell in my life, sectioned to keep me alive on a number of occasions. In actual fact, the first time I was sectioned I was very rationally setting out my case to the doctors on why I should be allowed to take my life, that it was unfair o was being kept alive in misery just to make other people feel better.

If assisted dying was in law, I would be dead now.

What I needed was treatment and time - not a syringe or a pill to end my life.

There was a case recently in the news about a young lady with personality disorder who has been granted right to die. I have the same diagnosis. That two doctors have told her things will never get better is horrifying and does NOT match the evidence of patterns of recovery for people with BPD. It IS treatable, but more than anything TIME and LONG TERM treatment is needed - to give up on her when she is so young is just frankly terrifying and says more about the doctors lack of knowledge and confidence in working with this disorder than anything else. I work in mental health in this specific area (personality disorders) and I have not met a single dr or medical professional that agrees with the decision and all have been horrified and dismayed that any psychiatrist (let alone two!) would just put their hands up and say ‘yep, no hope for you, may as well just die’.

SeanBeansMealDeal · 27/04/2024 14:25

Findwen · 27/04/2024 13:56

I personally find it hard to see how it is meaningfully different from abortion. I get the coercion concerns but surely they are equally applicable to vulnerable pregnant women too and yet we seem to manage.

I should be able to decide when the quality of my life is too low to carry on, regardless of others judgement. If for me, that means when I can no longer crochet - then who are you to decide that is not a good enough reason ?

But this is already effectively the case for most people anyway. If you decide you want to die because you can no longer crochet, your bones ache, your boyfriend has left you, your football team has been relegated, you just wonder what it would be like to stop living... it's not difficult for most people to arrange to take their own life in one of various ways, however serious or frivolous their reason.

The small group of people to whom this would be relevant are those with very little physical/mental ability and capacity to plan and carry out their own death, however much they may (or may not) just want to die.

By definition, all people in this group are very vulnerable, dependent and highly at risk of potential abuse.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/04/2024 14:28

I personally find it hard to see how it is meaningfully different from abortion. I get the coercion concerns but surely they are equally applicable to vulnerable pregnant women too and yet we seem to manage

I guess that would depend on when independent life/agency is believed to start, and that's a whole thread on its own

Even with abortion you get extremists though, from the "never - it's murder" folk to those who extend the "as early as possible, as late as necessary" argument to advocate actual infanticide "but only in the first few days after birth"

And yes that really happened on here; it's seared in my brain, though fortunately the comment was deleted

Echobelly · 27/04/2024 14:29

I think there is going to be increasing support for this as more and more people see loved ones suffering for long periods and having terrible quality of life for their last few months or years.

iloveeverykindofcat · 27/04/2024 14:31

@Puzzledandpissedoff yes, I've often thought the abortion debate on here is bizarrely polarized with people entrenched in very extreme positions, not at all reflective of real life opinion polls. I agree that the most logically consistent positions on abortion are either "always" or "never", but in reality, most laws are a compromise, and contain some kind of logical fudge.

AderynBach · 27/04/2024 14:33

Times article recently from Matthew Parris. Sorry I can't work out how to do a share token. I've highlighted a few particularly alarming passages.

"We can’t afford a taboo on assisted dying"

The late Michael Foot, that cerebral thinker, superb orator and calamitous Labour leader, once taught me a truth I’ve taken to heart. In any debate (Foot said) a good speech identifies the weaknesses in the other side’s case; but a great speech confronts its strengths.

As the Scottish parliament begins work on a bill to legalise assisted dying — a measure I’m sure is overdue — I could spend these thousand words on weaknesses in the objectors’ case. I could tackle the religious objections, which are irrelevant unless you believe in a divinity who has sanctified all human life, and absurd if you aren’t then a pacifist. I could tackle the argument that near-miraculous deathbed recoveries have occurred: yes indeed, but one Lazarus cannot justify a million torments. I could tackle the argument that unscrupulous relatives impatient for their inheritance may try to talk a sick person into ending it all. They may — but they’ll need to involve the certifying doctors in their plot. All these “what if” and “what about” arguments can be resisted, and in the fierce continuing debate, they will be. But count me out.

Anecdote, too, I won’t be drawn into. True stories will be enlisted on both sides. There will be tales of those who suffered to the last yet finally found God, or peace, or meaning. Or stories of loved ones for whom an assisted death was arranged, and who died blissfully happy and relieved. Anecdote can be telling, moving; but it shouldn’t clinch an argument.

So I’ll try here to follow Michael Foot’s advice. Let’s acknowledge and confront the strongest argument against assisted dying. As (objectors say) the practice spreads, social and cultural pressure will grow on the terminally ill to hasten their own deaths so as “not to be a burden” on others or themselves.
I believe this will indeed come to pass. And I would welcome it.

I don’t dispute the objectors’ belief that once assisted dying becomes normalised we will become more apt to ask ourselves for how much longer we can justify the struggle. Is life still giving us more pleasure than pain? How much is all this costing relatives and the health service? How much of a burden are we placing on those who love us? How much of a burden are we placing upon ourselves? We will notice others asking themselves these questions and we’ll feel empowered by changing social norms to ask them ourselves. Discussion will become more open. It will become common practice to pose this question without embarrassment, and to weigh the answer up.

But it’s not as if these questions are new: they already haunt and have always haunted many afflicted by intolerable misery, indignity or suffering. That’s simply how people think: it’s natural. It’s right. If assisted dying becomes common and widely accepted, hundreds of thousands — perhaps millions — will consider choosing this road when the time comes; and in some cases, even ask themselves whether it would be selfish not to.

In short, a taboo will be lifted — and taboo is potent.

What today is criminal could tomorrow become (as its proponents tend to insist) a sad but permitted option in a relatively small number of special and agonising circumstances; but within a decade or more be seen as a normal road for many to take, and considered socially responsible — and even, finally, urged upon people. Such (say objectors) is the wedge of which the Scottish proposal is just the thin end.
Yes, but what’s wrong with the thick end? It will be a healthy development.

In this century the future holds an almost cosmic struggle between, on the one hand, the old world with our ageing populations and inflexible economies, and, on the other, the raw and unbridled energies of an emerging, younger, nimbler and very different world, led by countries like China: all relatively new to prosperity and unencumbered by our western populations’ sense of entitlement.
We in Europe and North America (and, for instance, Japan, Australia and South Korea) are increasingly weighed down by low birth rates and high longevity. It’s more than a decade since in Japan sales of nappies for the elderly overtook sales of nappies for babies. One Japanese town is now recycling used incontinence pads into fuel for heating. Here in Britain it has become a common joke that our country has become a massive health service and attached care homes sector, with a state as a mere appendage, rather than the other way round.

A proportionately ever-smaller working population carries an ever-larger cohort of elderly and retired citizens, supported by state pensions and advances in medical science that sustain us into ever-longer retirements. When I was a child the average male lived to about 65, the age of male retirement. The average female lasted about ten years beyond her retirement age at 60. In 2020 the average male had lived on more than 20 years (the average female nearly 30) beyond retirement.

Good news? Often not for the final years of these extended retirements, often characterised by immobility, ill-health and dementia: and typically wildly expensive, cornering resources to fund our health and social care sectors. This imbalance helps explain governments’ desperate reliance on immigration — to the rage of electorates who won’t face the fundamental question: how are our economies going to pay for the ruinously expensive overhang that dare not speak its name: old age and infirmity?

SeanBeansMealDeal · 27/04/2024 14:33

So if your loved one is suicidal, there will be no more calling mental health services and having them sectioned - on what basis? Their body their life their choice right?

It's very scary, isn't it? If we go by experience of 'other' personal health concerns that have been in the news a lot, we could very well see anybody trying to help the vulnerable person painted as the bad guy - and even subject to sanctions and/or punished for promoting 'conversion therapy' i.e. seeking to coerce, control and force 'a person who wants to die' into becoming 'a person who doesn't want to die'.

It's especially frightening, considering the huge, huge amounts of people who will clearly state that they 'want to die', when it's a desperate cry for help and they absolutely don't want to actually die.

CanadianSamwise · 27/04/2024 14:36

Solgrass · 26/04/2024 19:03

Once upon a time I would have agreed with you;however, I’ve seen what’s happening in Canada and it’s truly horrendous. It didn’t start out that way, it’s a slow creep.

I am not sure where you are getting your info, but as a Canadian, nothing truly horrendous is happening here. There are numerous checks and balances to ensure assisted dying is appropriate. People have been able to choose to end their suffering while maintaining their dignity.

Echobelly · 27/04/2024 14:38

I don't agree in it for mental health grounds, I know some places allow that but that is a particularly fraught angle.

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/04/2024 14:40

EatCrow · 27/04/2024 09:54

The easiest solution would be to allow people to purchase Nebutal and make their own choice.

This is interesting. I agree with all drugs being decriminalised. In the case of addiction.

I also know that putting painkillers in blister packs, rather than jars, prevents suicides. Because in the time it takes to pop 500 pills out, many people have changed their minds. We also section people who are a 'harm to self'. And bridges with supportive posters and helpline numbers see a reduction in deaths.

Ending a human life should be, in all cases, a difficult choice. One we try to avoid. You have to think about whether the person is likely to recover, whether they have been given the care and support to recover, whether they would have consented when they have capacity and whether they consent now, freely and with full control.

I worked in addictions treatment. There were so many people there who had tried to end their own lives but now had treatment and went on to live happy, fulfilled lives. But of course the very good NHS residential treatment centre I worked in closed. Out patient for everyone now.

If people are just a straight yes or no on this, I worry. It should be difficult and keep us up at night.

And no, it's nothing like abortion. Don't throw away women's rights to debate something else.

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 14:40

AderynBach · 27/04/2024 14:33

Times article recently from Matthew Parris. Sorry I can't work out how to do a share token. I've highlighted a few particularly alarming passages.

"We can’t afford a taboo on assisted dying"

The late Michael Foot, that cerebral thinker, superb orator and calamitous Labour leader, once taught me a truth I’ve taken to heart. In any debate (Foot said) a good speech identifies the weaknesses in the other side’s case; but a great speech confronts its strengths.

As the Scottish parliament begins work on a bill to legalise assisted dying — a measure I’m sure is overdue — I could spend these thousand words on weaknesses in the objectors’ case. I could tackle the religious objections, which are irrelevant unless you believe in a divinity who has sanctified all human life, and absurd if you aren’t then a pacifist. I could tackle the argument that near-miraculous deathbed recoveries have occurred: yes indeed, but one Lazarus cannot justify a million torments. I could tackle the argument that unscrupulous relatives impatient for their inheritance may try to talk a sick person into ending it all. They may — but they’ll need to involve the certifying doctors in their plot. All these “what if” and “what about” arguments can be resisted, and in the fierce continuing debate, they will be. But count me out.

Anecdote, too, I won’t be drawn into. True stories will be enlisted on both sides. There will be tales of those who suffered to the last yet finally found God, or peace, or meaning. Or stories of loved ones for whom an assisted death was arranged, and who died blissfully happy and relieved. Anecdote can be telling, moving; but it shouldn’t clinch an argument.

So I’ll try here to follow Michael Foot’s advice. Let’s acknowledge and confront the strongest argument against assisted dying. As (objectors say) the practice spreads, social and cultural pressure will grow on the terminally ill to hasten their own deaths so as “not to be a burden” on others or themselves.
I believe this will indeed come to pass. And I would welcome it.

I don’t dispute the objectors’ belief that once assisted dying becomes normalised we will become more apt to ask ourselves for how much longer we can justify the struggle. Is life still giving us more pleasure than pain? How much is all this costing relatives and the health service? How much of a burden are we placing on those who love us? How much of a burden are we placing upon ourselves? We will notice others asking themselves these questions and we’ll feel empowered by changing social norms to ask them ourselves. Discussion will become more open. It will become common practice to pose this question without embarrassment, and to weigh the answer up.

But it’s not as if these questions are new: they already haunt and have always haunted many afflicted by intolerable misery, indignity or suffering. That’s simply how people think: it’s natural. It’s right. If assisted dying becomes common and widely accepted, hundreds of thousands — perhaps millions — will consider choosing this road when the time comes; and in some cases, even ask themselves whether it would be selfish not to.

In short, a taboo will be lifted — and taboo is potent.

What today is criminal could tomorrow become (as its proponents tend to insist) a sad but permitted option in a relatively small number of special and agonising circumstances; but within a decade or more be seen as a normal road for many to take, and considered socially responsible — and even, finally, urged upon people. Such (say objectors) is the wedge of which the Scottish proposal is just the thin end.
Yes, but what’s wrong with the thick end? It will be a healthy development.

In this century the future holds an almost cosmic struggle between, on the one hand, the old world with our ageing populations and inflexible economies, and, on the other, the raw and unbridled energies of an emerging, younger, nimbler and very different world, led by countries like China: all relatively new to prosperity and unencumbered by our western populations’ sense of entitlement.
We in Europe and North America (and, for instance, Japan, Australia and South Korea) are increasingly weighed down by low birth rates and high longevity. It’s more than a decade since in Japan sales of nappies for the elderly overtook sales of nappies for babies. One Japanese town is now recycling used incontinence pads into fuel for heating. Here in Britain it has become a common joke that our country has become a massive health service and attached care homes sector, with a state as a mere appendage, rather than the other way round.

A proportionately ever-smaller working population carries an ever-larger cohort of elderly and retired citizens, supported by state pensions and advances in medical science that sustain us into ever-longer retirements. When I was a child the average male lived to about 65, the age of male retirement. The average female lasted about ten years beyond her retirement age at 60. In 2020 the average male had lived on more than 20 years (the average female nearly 30) beyond retirement.

Good news? Often not for the final years of these extended retirements, often characterised by immobility, ill-health and dementia: and typically wildly expensive, cornering resources to fund our health and social care sectors. This imbalance helps explain governments’ desperate reliance on immigration — to the rage of electorates who won’t face the fundamental question: how are our economies going to pay for the ruinously expensive overhang that dare not speak its name: old age and infirmity?

That’s a good article. I agree with him.

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 27/04/2024 14:42

@CanadianSamwise what field do you work in? Because I know a Canadian youth worker and she's horrified. Teenagers with MH issues talking about MAID when they can't get a GP or any MH care.

Echobelly · 27/04/2024 14:44

I agree with Parris - yes, maybe people will think about the cost of maintaining their lives and weighing that against carrying on living, but they're not going to get to that point until their lives become hard to endure anyway and they won't be allowed to consider it unless they are seriously ill/disabled.

I fear we will see an increase, if assisted dying isn't allowed, of older people killing themselves when diagnosed with certain conditions, such as dementia, because they'll have seen their peers and parents suffer and will absolutely not want to go through that or have their loved ones go through it.

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