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Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.

1000 replies

Mavenss · 26/04/2024 18:59

We will be able to see which MPs are for or against assisted dying.

This Monday 29th April, assisted dying will be debated in Westminster for the first time in two years. An absolutely incredible 203,000 people added their name to the government petitionspearheaded by Dame Esther Rantzen to make this happen, creating the largest ever parliamentary petition on assisted dying.

There will not be a vote on Monday, but this debate will be the last time before the General Election that MPs have an opportunity to show you that they are listening to our calls for safe and compassionate choice at the end of life. A majority of voters in every constituency support an assisted dying law.

The debate starts at 4:30pmand you can watch it live online through the UK parliament website.

YABU- it’s a silly idea, why are government even debating it? Assisted dying is a terrible idea.

YANBU - I support the debate and assisted dying (under the agreed circumstances)

I’m interested in the MN feedback here.

Petition: Hold a parliamentary vote on assisted dying

This petition calls for the Government to allocate Parliamentary time for assisted dying to be fully debated in the House of Commons and to give MPs a vote on the issue. Terminally ill people who are mentally sound and near the end of their lives shoul...

https://ca.engagingnetworks.app/page/email/click/2162/7065208?email=Rc3cp5aS0CkDfkUdrpdRoZmQCvNVYxKY&campid=9YL2yT2RiPe15xl1A%2FXc2A==

OP posts:
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AderynBach · 27/04/2024 14:44

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 14:40

That’s a good article. I agree with him.

Well, at least you're saying the quiet parts out loud.
I think we should all be very clear about what we're dealing with, and the agenda behind threads like this which keep popping up.

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 14:47

AderynBach · 27/04/2024 14:44

Well, at least you're saying the quiet parts out loud.
I think we should all be very clear about what we're dealing with, and the agenda behind threads like this which keep popping up.

Not sure what you mean. I’ve no ‘agenda’. As I’ve read through this thread , and the links people have provided, and the information they’ve discussed - I have become more convinced we need it. That’s the truth. No ‘agenda’.

People being ‘kept alive’ with a shit quality of life is not for most people. Most people I think, would say they’d like to live as long as possible, if their health allows a good quality of life. Otherwise what?

OP posts:
AderynBach · 27/04/2024 14:50

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 14:47

Not sure what you mean. I’ve no ‘agenda’. As I’ve read through this thread , and the links people have provided, and the information they’ve discussed - I have become more convinced we need it. That’s the truth. No ‘agenda’.

People being ‘kept alive’ with a shit quality of life is not for most people. Most people I think, would say they’d like to live as long as possible, if their health allows a good quality of life. Otherwise what?

Edited

If you accept that it will utterly change society and the value we give human life, and become a social pressure on the vulnerable and elderly, and are all the more convinced that 'we need it', then that's an agenda and it's good you have made this clear.

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 14:55

AderynBach · 27/04/2024 14:50

If you accept that it will utterly change society and the value we give human life, and become a social pressure on the vulnerable and elderly, and are all the more convinced that 'we need it', then that's an agenda and it's good you have made this clear.

🤷‍♀️ no point in arguing with you. That’s not what I posted for.

It’s an emotive subject. Eg. No one would agree with ‘social pressure on the vulnerable and elderly’ to kill thenselves, if they don’t want to.

People should be able to talk about it without hyperbole and purposeful misunderstandings.

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AderynBach · 27/04/2024 15:03

Eg. No one would agree with ‘social pressure on the vulnerable and elderly’ to kill thenselves, if they don’t want to.

Except you and Matthew Parris, apparently. Yes, it is pretty emotive when you say you agree with what he wrote in his article.

titbumwillypoo · 27/04/2024 15:03

AderynBach, sorry but we don't value human life either as a country or as a species. We put a monetary value on people and what they do with their lives but we certainly do not value life.

AderynBach · 27/04/2024 15:04

titbumwillypoo · 27/04/2024 15:03

AderynBach, sorry but we don't value human life either as a country or as a species. We put a monetary value on people and what they do with their lives but we certainly do not value life.

And what - that's ok?

iloveeverykindofcat · 27/04/2024 15:17

I mean, I assume this Parris guy would say (and I'm NOT saying I agree with him, I'm just sayings its an argument) that he does value human life, but on different calculations - as in, the benefit of the collective should be prioritized over individuals. In this country our ethical traditions are quite different, so what he's saying strikes most of us (me included) as pretty shocking, but there certainly have been societies that operated in that way.

SeanBeansMealDeal · 27/04/2024 15:20

Am I understanding Matthew Parris correctly - is he saying that a taboo is an inherently bad thing? Apologies if I have misconstrued him.

Some taboos are crazy and do need to be challenged, but others are in place for very solid reasons and should firmly remain (even though there are always minorities who will seek to challenge them). What about the taboos relating to bestiality, incest, paedophilia etc.?

Yes, if we make this legal, that means that people who feel they have no more quality of life and who definitely 100% DO want to die will then have that right; but the trade-off for that is that, potentially, nobody is then EVER 100% safe from being 'legally assisted' to die when they may not actually truly, fully and decisively want to.

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/04/2024 15:25

iloveeverykindofcat · 27/04/2024 15:17

I mean, I assume this Parris guy would say (and I'm NOT saying I agree with him, I'm just sayings its an argument) that he does value human life, but on different calculations - as in, the benefit of the collective should be prioritized over individuals. In this country our ethical traditions are quite different, so what he's saying strikes most of us (me included) as pretty shocking, but there certainly have been societies that operated in that way.

Yes, but those collective societies usually don't kill the old and small children except when resources are stretched. Lots of cultures from Tamil to Inuit have senicide. But they aren't cultures with vast wealth and the means to feed everyone regardless of their utility.

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/04/2024 15:26

Am I understanding Matthew Parris correctly - is he saying that a taboo is an inherently bad thing?

I always find the POMO, everything is up for grabs, attitude strong in older rich white men. They know the consequences of 'anything goes' won't result in their abuse, rape or death.

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 15:30

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/04/2024 15:26

Am I understanding Matthew Parris correctly - is he saying that a taboo is an inherently bad thing?

I always find the POMO, everything is up for grabs, attitude strong in older rich white men. They know the consequences of 'anything goes' won't result in their abuse, rape or death.

I agree with you in general. In this particular area, probably not. Being rich is if anything, a factor for discussion, for obvious reasons. If people are seriously thinking that others will effectively ensure the rapid demise of their wealthy old relatives.

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iloveeverykindofcat · 27/04/2024 15:31

@MrsTerryPratchett Oh totally, I agree. I think its a weak article for lots of reasons, but I assumed he was depicting some sort of future scenario where the UK is an impoverished failed economy and we don't have enough resources for everyone, or at least strongly implying it. But maybe he's just not a very clear writer 🤔

fungipie · 27/04/2024 15:31

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/04/2024 15:26

Am I understanding Matthew Parris correctly - is he saying that a taboo is an inherently bad thing?

I always find the POMO, everything is up for grabs, attitude strong in older rich white men. They know the consequences of 'anything goes' won't result in their abuse, rape or death.

Reading your MS name- in this context, really made me jump. He was a huge advocate of assisted diying. I shall always remember his Dimbleby lecture on the subject.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/04/2024 15:34

I agree with Parris - yes, maybe people will think about the cost of maintaining their lives and weighing that against carrying on living, but they're not going to get to that point until their lives become hard to endure anyway and they won't be allowed to consider it unless they are seriously ill/disabled

Apologies for using "but Canada ..." again, but that's doubtless what was said there - except that as in my link upthread, restricting MAID to the terminally ill was later judged "unconstitutional", forcing lawmakers to extend the qualifiers

Hence, perhaps, the many comments about slippery slopes and governments seizing on this as an ideal opportunity to reduce the numbers of the expensive

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/04/2024 15:34

@fungipie I've said several times I'm in favour of assisted dying. It's the detail and how it's being done in Canada that scares the crap out of me.

OvaHere · 27/04/2024 15:45

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/04/2024 15:34

I agree with Parris - yes, maybe people will think about the cost of maintaining their lives and weighing that against carrying on living, but they're not going to get to that point until their lives become hard to endure anyway and they won't be allowed to consider it unless they are seriously ill/disabled

Apologies for using "but Canada ..." again, but that's doubtless what was said there - except that as in my link upthread, restricting MAID to the terminally ill was later judged "unconstitutional", forcing lawmakers to extend the qualifiers

Hence, perhaps, the many comments about slippery slopes and governments seizing on this as an ideal opportunity to reduce the numbers of the expensive

I think this is the worry. I'm sure it's possible to write solid legislation with safeguards (not sure I trust this gov to do that and definitely not Scotgov) but once that legislation passes there will immediately be activists looking to bring legal cases to force it's expansion.

That seems to be what happened in Canada and it would be naive to think it won't happen here. I think it will be very difficult to safeguard it so that in 20 years time it hasn't become another 'industry'.

I am concerned our politicians and judiciary aren't up to the job of stopping that happening and keeping it within the narrow scope that was originally intended.

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 15:49

OvaHere · 27/04/2024 15:45

I think this is the worry. I'm sure it's possible to write solid legislation with safeguards (not sure I trust this gov to do that and definitely not Scotgov) but once that legislation passes there will immediately be activists looking to bring legal cases to force it's expansion.

That seems to be what happened in Canada and it would be naive to think it won't happen here. I think it will be very difficult to safeguard it so that in 20 years time it hasn't become another 'industry'.

I am concerned our politicians and judiciary aren't up to the job of stopping that happening and keeping it within the narrow scope that was originally intended.

It hasn’t happened in Australia.

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fungipie · 27/04/2024 15:50

Ah thanks for this. Surely the UK does not have to follow the Canada model however.

My mother always said, very sensibly, that she found it obscene that so much money was spent on drugs, treatment and operations on her in her 90s- who had had a very good innings and would prefer to go rather than go on with more treatment and pain. Ideally, there should be money to treat all- but wit modern advances, the cost is humongous and choices have to be made. She had to realy insist that treatment should stop, and almost become aggressive about it. The last couple of years of her life, she just wanted to go. She was always vey positive in life, but enough was enough. She always said she wanted the cost of her treatment to go to children and young people with hope of a future.

She would have very happily chosen assisted dying, had it been available. And so would I if and when I get to that stage.

SeanBeansMealDeal · 27/04/2024 15:52

Mavenss · 27/04/2024 15:30

I agree with you in general. In this particular area, probably not. Being rich is if anything, a factor for discussion, for obvious reasons. If people are seriously thinking that others will effectively ensure the rapid demise of their wealthy old relatives.

True, but most elderly people who own their own homes - and don't have to spend it all on care, which would be pertinent here - will have quite a decent sum of assets to leave. They may not be rich whilst alive - their home is just their home - but after they've gone, it could very easily be a few hundred thousand (or considerably more) to make its way down to eagerly waiting hands.

Even if the sum of their life's assets isn't all that great, if you have greedy unscrupulous people who would obviously have preferred a million, they're still not likely to see even £10K as not worth their devious efforts, if they can still get their grubby hands on it.

BIossomtoes · 27/04/2024 16:03

fungipie · 27/04/2024 15:50

Ah thanks for this. Surely the UK does not have to follow the Canada model however.

My mother always said, very sensibly, that she found it obscene that so much money was spent on drugs, treatment and operations on her in her 90s- who had had a very good innings and would prefer to go rather than go on with more treatment and pain. Ideally, there should be money to treat all- but wit modern advances, the cost is humongous and choices have to be made. She had to realy insist that treatment should stop, and almost become aggressive about it. The last couple of years of her life, she just wanted to go. She was always vey positive in life, but enough was enough. She always said she wanted the cost of her treatment to go to children and young people with hope of a future.

She would have very happily chosen assisted dying, had it been available. And so would I if and when I get to that stage.

I couldn’t agree more. The debate really shouldn’t be whether we allow legal assisted dying but the safeguards put in place around it. I very strongly object to the government telling me I have no autonomy to make decisions about my own life and body. If it wants me to take financial responsibility for my care in old age if I get dementia (which I probably will) it should be my decision to determine in advance whether I do so or not. I absolutely do not want to put my family or myself through that.

AnotherNightAnotherName · 27/04/2024 16:05

Ideally we could restrict the right to someone who had a terminal illness, with say max 3-6 months left? And doctors could be ready to sign off the process once the pain was untreatable (evidenced over a few hours rather than days or weeks). The patient would need to have provided approval beforehand when able. Perhaps a few more safeguards needed like 2 doctors etc.

If this cannot be watertight I would not vote for it, the situation in Canada is a disgrace.

And, as others have said, think of the economic incentive of killing off a chunk of expensive old people, it would solve a country’s healthcare / housing / budget problems overnight. It’s terrifying to think of where this might go once the floodgates were opened.

Samlewis96 · 27/04/2024 16:15

iloveeverykindofcat · 27/04/2024 05:41

And and - sorry for the double post, but its a topic that I think about a lot - isn't there something in between euthanasia and the current way? When my grandmother was in her mid eighties, advanced dementia, advanced Parkinsons, weighed about 5st, broken both hips, etc etc....she got one infection after another and they just kept hammering her with antibiotics and every treatment in the book until my mother intervened and said for the love of God, stop. Just keep her comfortable and let her die. Why is the current way to keep aggressively treating people in states like that? Why can't doctors say "look, we could probably treat this current acute crisis and extend this person's life a bit longer, but we shouldn't. At this point it would be in their interest to give them painkillers and let nature take its course". Why isn't that the norm, rather than going directly to euthanasia?

My mum had an advance directive which stated when and in what case she wanted to refuse treatment even if it shortened her life.

It was a bloody nightmare battling the hospital who were putting antibiotics into her against her wishes.

She had a catastrophic stroke , couldn't pass the swallow test at any point. Completely paralyzed on one side as well as blind in one eye. Not suitable for any of the usual treatment. Unable to communicate much. Yet when she started showing signs of chest infection they automatically plugged antibiotics into her. Despite having had copy of the advance directive saying no if she had a brain injury. Not helped by family not allowed in ( covid) so not able to talk directly to staff and mum couldn't.

When we did finally get them to withdraw treatment she died peacefully within 3 days

fungipie · 27/04/2024 16:28

AnotherNightAnotherName · 27/04/2024 16:05

Ideally we could restrict the right to someone who had a terminal illness, with say max 3-6 months left? And doctors could be ready to sign off the process once the pain was untreatable (evidenced over a few hours rather than days or weeks). The patient would need to have provided approval beforehand when able. Perhaps a few more safeguards needed like 2 doctors etc.

If this cannot be watertight I would not vote for it, the situation in Canada is a disgrace.

And, as others have said, think of the economic incentive of killing off a chunk of expensive old people, it would solve a country’s healthcare / housing / budget problems overnight. It’s terrifying to think of where this might go once the floodgates were opened.

Nobody is talking about 'killing off' anyone FGS! But people having the CHOICE to ask for it, in certain circumstances, and with proper safeguards in place to ensure no outside influences.

XenoBitch · 27/04/2024 17:06

Currently, in this country, if someone is attempting to take their life, or making plans to do so, we take legal steps to detain and prevent them doing so on the basis that they are lacking the capacity at that time to make the best choices for themselves

Not many people are sectioned for suicidal ideation or even behaviour. There simply isn't enough MH beds.

I have been in A&E on more than one occasion with plans to end my life, to be told by the MH nurses that it was my choice. I have known other people to have been told the same, and to be told to contact their GP.

Have a look for the case of Amy Morby. She had BPD, and after numerous attempts on her own life, was still deemed to have capacity to do so. She died after refusing life saving treatment.

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