To feel so sad about what happened to our town?

[AbstractThought]

I wasn't born here, DH was, and I have seen it discussed on MN in the past. I am aware that many towns across the UK are in a similar situation, so this probably isn't anything special, but since most people talk about shop closures I wanted to look at it from a different angle.

In the past decade we have a ton more issues in the town than previously, often relating to homelessness and addiction, and the town centre, what's left of it, has become completely over run by these problems with groups of people fighting and street drinking. A lot of these people are in extreme difficulty, whether mental health related and/or drug issues. Crime shot through the roof, and even about 8 streets away from this it spills outwards to us in what was once a fairly quiet place to live.
We now have a constant stream of siren noise, day and night, helicopters are daily and whilst we personally haven't felt in any actual danger there is a horrible sense of decay and hopelessness. Just nipping to the closest supermarket is depressing, there are a lot of neglected animals and people having meltdowns in the streets.

It is how it changed so quickly though. I can't get my head around where it all started or why. I am aware of the contribution of politics, covid, all of that stuff, but it seems so incredibly extreme. The siren noise is the worst, it is piercing and never seems to end. This also seemed to explode around the same time as the area went downhill. Probably a mix of police and emergency vehicles. It is difficult to work or relax at home and if you are a light sleeper it can have an impact there too.

What I am wondering is if this is commonplace now, in what was once a thriving town? It is the sheer amount of troubled people which seems to have escalated the most, and I can't get my head around how this has evolved, in such a short space of time. It is like they weren't here, then suddenly appeared, it is difficult to describe it. Obviously the council can't do a great deal to help and I have no idea what the answer is. The most upsetting thing is that a lot of these people are so messed up that they can barely talk in a way that is decipherable. This includes children, and there is a growing amount of people who have barely any teeth. This is a fucking severe problem and I have no idea what will help it. We have mucked in with a few local charities but it barely scratches the surface in my opinion.
We are moving due to work relocation soon, so whilst it may not be 'our' problem after we have gone, this isn't the point. I am just so sorry that it has come to this, in likely even more places than just here. WTF happened??

That is only one perspective though. If you care about your kids education the chances are they will have gone to schools that take it seriously, ditto their peer group.

In this town, it is quite the opposite. Quite a few here take a certain impish pride in not being able to read. It isn't even an exaggeration. If I hadn't lived here I would hardly believe it.

My own school was a bog standard comp but people were all going on to further education. My school would be considered 'posh' now, and it really wasn't.

IMO urban design in other European countries where people live in flats in the town centres make social contact easier. People live literally on the high street within a few minutes walk of all kind of amenities. That makes it easier for authorities to open community centres and the like as the catchment population is right on the doorstep. Obviously in large cities it is not quite like that but still.

This is what I meant. No one cares enough to provide services in a way that the most disadvantaged can actually access them.

Not being particularly adept at sharing from YouTube may I offer a young lad called Ren who has a track called "She sells sea shells" which us a damning indictment of "economy" as we understand it.

He's pretty insightful and comes from a complex background. If he could gain traction with "da yoof" that revolution might just happen. Not holding my breath but I'd be behind him.

Do other countries in western Europe have the same kind of feral people that we have here? I'm not talking about the drug addicted people who hang around town centres, but people who hate education, very entitled, are chronically violent and aggressive and who destroy their environment, make their neighbour's lives a misery etc.?

It is not about going to university. I went to a school in a very poor area. Out of about 250 pupils a year, 10 went on to university. And getting jobs was hard. But most pupils leaving did get jobs. They were not brilliant jobs, factory work, working in shops, etc. But it meant they were earning and could go out and have fun. Being unemployed is really bad for young adults.

@passtheajax I've definitely found the UK and Ireland worst for this kind of feral antisocial behaviour if I'm honest.

I’d be really interested to know the answer to this as well. I know exactly what you mean.

Swimsong, agree with you.

In any society there are a minority of people who do not follow the rules and create difficulties.
But government policies can minimise this number of people or increase them.
Public policies have very much been shaped around the strongest win, and people have to look after themselves - they call it taking personal responsibility.
So we don't care if you can't access services online, or if you do not have enough data to hang on in a telephone queue. Take personal responsibility and sort your issues as an individual.

When the government and public policies tell people they do not matter, some will react to that anti socially. It is a reaction that takes on the individualism of the government. Very much fine you do not give a shit about me, I will look after myself and my family and I do not give a shit if doing what is best for us negatively impacts others.

You want people to feel part of mainstream society and that they still matter. You want people to be invested in their area and the country.

We do live in communities and people acting as part of that community does matter. We are not just individuals who all have to take personal responsibility.

If he could gain traction with "da yoof" that revolution might just happen. Not holding my breath but I'd be behind him.

Mistress what form would this revolution take? Whenever revolution is mentioned, posters say “it wouldn’t be violent” but how would it be achieved?
Presumably you don’t mean via the ballot box?

“Because the welfare system now simply props up people’s chaotic lifestyles and enables their addictions. It also means they can just continue to have children, as many as they want, knowing the state will ultimately look after them.”

False. There is a two-child limit for UK benefits now which means that parents cannot claim child tax credit or universal credit for any third or subsequent child born after April 2017.

To boot is “has failed to increase employment levels – but it has left hundreds of thousands of households in poverty, according to the first study of its kind.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/01/two-child-limit-on-uk-welfare-benefits-has-failed-to-push-parents-into-jobs

Also a benefit cap now for all adults.

We’ve added a very significant number of people to the population since the late 90s. That has had a huge impact. The benefits or otherwise of immigration are not for this thread, but the country, certainly in the South East, feels very cramped. I personally feel there are too many people for what is actually a small island and it’s only going to get worse. 80 million prediction in the next decade. We’re like rats in cages. Everything is being thin sliced and there’s less and less of everything to go round, including space.

the beginning of stratospheric house price inflation in the late 90s also led to a feeling of hope, but disastrous in the long term.

It probably depends where you have lived but it does not feel like a minority here, it is absolutely the majority. It is rare to spot anyone about who isn't dressed head to toe in black, and those who don't know what I mean by that are probably in a more mixed or less troubled area. A good amount of people are suffering mental illness compounded by drink. It is typical that most people who pass you in the town centre now can barely utter an articulate sentence, or are shouting and grumbling to themselves. It is shocking when you first experience it, and for me that shock never really went away.

We came here due to DH work and I suppose hung on too long precisely because we know we can leave if we want to. Unfortunately that stubbornness of mine took it's toll, what I have witnessed has had an effect on my world view.

I grew up in an idyll compared to this. Nothing too affluent, just lovely. I think it is very difficult to imagine it feeling like a majority unless you've experienced it.

What about the ones who didn't go to the sixth form???

Most sixth formers going to Uni is expected really as A levels are now a stepping stone to Uni rather than standing for something themselves. We're a long way past where a few A levels was the basic entry requirement for good jobs - most are now degree requirement.

@hairbearbunches Honestly you are talking far more about middle class concerns.
For the people we are talking about their issues are often more basic. But few middle class people care about those issues.
So many places have withdrawn grants from small neighbourhood charities who used to help plug some of the gaps. The place left where I live that is plugging some gaps is a cafe with an owner who wants to help the struggling people she meets all the time. If she closed I have no idea where people would go.

These people who have no shame in being unedicated are always from the most deprived backgrounda though. Multi-generational poverty is failure on society's part in not enabling some degree of social mobility. The past couple of generations have been poorer than the last, they don't actually have a chance.

@AbstractThought Dressing totally in black is an interesting observation. I used to when I was a teenager and young adult living in a very poor area. I could only afford cheap clothes and not many. Black clothes that are cheap can look better than coloured cheap clothes, and there is less issue with potential stains so they last longer. I just saw it as a practical choice.

@Lagoony Not true. Plenty of upper class people do not value education.

@AbstractThought I know what you mean about it feeling like a majority, I have noticed it particularly round here with youths, they are all in black with their faces covered riding E Scooters all over the pavements and roads. Our county police force have a dedicated OCG group patrolling the motorways, they confiscate huge quantities of drugs and cash and make arrests on a weekly basis. There is still open drug dealing on the street at all times day and night near the church I attend.

I stopped at a pedestrian crossing today on a red light and was so pleasantly surprised to see a couple of lovely friendly looking teenage boys acknowledging the cars that had stopped and smiling.

Some years ago on holiday where there were a lot of Dutch families DH and I both commented on the teenagers being cheerful and enjoying spending time with their families, countries like the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries seem to be getting something right, what is going wrong here?

Anti intellectualism isn't just poverty though at all.
This recent thread on Reddit encapsulates people's current confusion about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/1btdyt0/where_does_antiintellectualism_in_schools_come/

I've seen this attitude in very comfortably off families over the years, my DH's mother impressed it upon him when young, although thankfully he ignored it. It is often a matter of tradition or attitude to education, rather than a direct effect of poverty (of course they still overlap!).
The Reddit discussion focuses more on class than economic background. Perhaps more cultural than we think?

@Evenstar one of the craziest things that I've witnessed here is how most of these people literally walk into traffic at extremely busy crossroads. There are countless pedestrian crossings, traffic lights, etc. It is like they either don't care or consider themselves invulnerable. I saw one guy walk directly in front of a bus at a busy junction, he didn't even pause.

Aren't Scandinavian countries much less populated than here? I would say cultural differences, like Japan, a completely different attitude to social rules and individualism. It isn't just the rich in this country who promote a culture of the 'self'.

It’s still related. Immigration has had a negative impact on the poorest in society. FOM with countries that don’t share economic parity is a one way street and the poorest from the richer country are absolutely shafted. And so it has proven to be. You can’t see them both as distinct issues, they’re completely interlinked.

@AbstractThought yes between the totally oblivious pedestrians and the E scooters you have to have your wits about you.

I saw a group of 6 boys on bikes and scooters heading to town this afternoon, not a helmet between them average age 9 or 10, three cars slammed their brakes on as they rode straight across a side road. Groups that age are such a problem locally shoplifting etc that many larger shops and the cinema have security guards.

Last summer our local Facebook groups were full of posts complaining about the antisocial behaviour or pleas from parents whose children had been out all night and couldn’t be found.

Lagoony · Today 15:39
These people who have no shame in being unedicated are always from the most deprived backgrounda though.

Lagoony you said the upper classes were thick and inbred so presumably they don’t care about education?