To feel so sad about what happened to our town?

[AbstractThought]

I wasn't born here, DH was, and I have seen it discussed on MN in the past. I am aware that many towns across the UK are in a similar situation, so this probably isn't anything special, but since most people talk about shop closures I wanted to look at it from a different angle.

In the past decade we have a ton more issues in the town than previously, often relating to homelessness and addiction, and the town centre, what's left of it, has become completely over run by these problems with groups of people fighting and street drinking. A lot of these people are in extreme difficulty, whether mental health related and/or drug issues. Crime shot through the roof, and even about 8 streets away from this it spills outwards to us in what was once a fairly quiet place to live.
We now have a constant stream of siren noise, day and night, helicopters are daily and whilst we personally haven't felt in any actual danger there is a horrible sense of decay and hopelessness. Just nipping to the closest supermarket is depressing, there are a lot of neglected animals and people having meltdowns in the streets.

It is how it changed so quickly though. I can't get my head around where it all started or why. I am aware of the contribution of politics, covid, all of that stuff, but it seems so incredibly extreme. The siren noise is the worst, it is piercing and never seems to end. This also seemed to explode around the same time as the area went downhill. Probably a mix of police and emergency vehicles. It is difficult to work or relax at home and if you are a light sleeper it can have an impact there too.

What I am wondering is if this is commonplace now, in what was once a thriving town? It is the sheer amount of troubled people which seems to have escalated the most, and I can't get my head around how this has evolved, in such a short space of time. It is like they weren't here, then suddenly appeared, it is difficult to describe it. Obviously the council can't do a great deal to help and I have no idea what the answer is. The most upsetting thing is that a lot of these people are so messed up that they can barely talk in a way that is decipherable. This includes children, and there is a growing amount of people who have barely any teeth. This is a fucking severe problem and I have no idea what will help it. We have mucked in with a few local charities but it barely scratches the surface in my opinion.
We are moving due to work relocation soon, so whilst it may not be 'our' problem after we have gone, this isn't the point. I am just so sorry that it has come to this, in likely even more places than just here. WTF happened??

I agree the French way is great and their town centres thrive in a way UK ones don’t. But if parking is free, that lost revenue has to be found from somewhere else. When I lived there, taxes were higher than the UK.

And there’s never an excuse to use Amazon. Loads of retailers have online shops that sell the same stuff at a similar price.

The revenue lost from parking charges, comes from more business, more business taxes and more jobs in the local area.

1000s of small businesses use Amazon as a means to sell products, Amazon then offers free returns, often delivery and covers lost in transit too.

Yes the French pay more in taxes, they also get far better public services too.

We in the UK, still pay high taxes but get back SFA.

The previous Govt has just lost £4 billion in fraud to technology loans, £4billion would fix dentistry or it could ensure more support to local councils in adult social care or limit parking charges...... instead our taxes have gone to criminals.

Interesting that this thread had come up given recent events. My unfortunate Cassandra type skills weren't far off the mark, but I naively thought it would be brought about by the Tories being re-elected.

Lately I have come to believe that it's purely neoliberalism and unfettered capitalism that is the root cause of global problems, not just decline in the UK. The "haves" are so invested in "having more" that any group of "have nots" have become tools of exploitation via any divisive manipulation tactic or ideology that suits the agenda. And there is an agenda. I'm more convinced of it now than ever.

The devil's in the detail but global destabilisation points to a terrible end game. Culture war, race war, pitting the "have nots" against each other to deflect attention from the "haves" .... we have the lessons of history but we ignore them.

The demise started in the 80s and 90s. "Big" supermarkets were allowed/encouraged to build out of town stores which sucked the life out of town centres. Town centre "identikit" chain stores killed off smaller independent shops. I remember 20 years ago people bemoaning that all High Streets looked the same with the same shops. Then came the internet which has killed off many of the identikit chain stores leaving many empty High Streets with just charity shops, Turkish barbers, bookies, etc.

Other countries managed to keep their smaller independent shops and thus still have vibrant shopping streets.

Only two groups of people to blame. Firstly politicians, local & national, who encouraged out of town retail parks. Secondly, ourselves, who turned our backs on smaller independent stores and the High Street and embraced out of town retail and internet shopping.

No going back now. The damage is done and won't be reversed.

Local town/county councils are making things worse by their war on cars, and seem to think that all a town centre needs to thrive are bars and restaurants. They've basically given up on High Street retail, and won't be doing anything to encourage it or reverse the damage they've done.

@Alexandra2001

1000s of small businesses use Amazon as a means to sell products, Amazon then offers free returns, often delivery and covers lost in transit too.

Exactly this. People seem to think that when they buy from Amazon, they're buying from Jeff Bezos. They're not. Amazon is a marketplace just like Ebay. Full of independent/smaller sellers, and chain stores. Yes, there are some things that Amazon sell directly themselves, but the majority of items are being sold by third party sellers.

People think that because it comes in an Amazon box and in an Amazon van, it must be sold by Amazon. But they don't understand "Fulfilled by Amazon" where sellers send their goods to Amazon warehouses where they are stored until sold, then once sold, they're picked and packed and distributed by Amazon workers. It's a very clever business model. When you return something, it goes back to an Amazon warehouse and their workers handle it, issue the refund, decide whether it's fit for resale in which case it goes back in the warehouse, if not, it's up to the seller what they want to do with it, i.e. have it returned to them, thrown it away or sell it cheaper as seconds/used items through Amazon.

I'm only a very small accountancy practice and even I have a number of clients who sell via Amazon, such as people with small local shops, people buying stuff from wholesales to sell via Amazon, people making stuff or repacking stuff to sell via Amazon. The Amazon marketplace works for them and they're happy to pay Amazon for storage and handling fees to deal with the sales, despatch and returns.

But why feed the beast?

If you find a small business on Amazon, check if they also sell direct - buying direct can mean they get to keep more of the profit too.

Also the Amazon business model may seem "clever" but it relies on a workforce that work in very poor conditions and uninionisation is opposed. Essentially it's our version of a sweat shop but with enough lip service paid to employment law to make plenty of people opine that the employees are lucky to have any sort of job at all so should put up and shut up. Which speaks to the very big problems of the bastardised version of capitalism we are living under.

Well, for my clients, they're happy to pay for someone else to store and process orders etc. Some don't have their own websites because it's cheaper to use Amazon. Some wouldn't be able to store the stock on their own premises as they're too small and don't want to pay ££££s for bigger premises, especially when rent/business rates are so high and they don't want to be stuck in long leases as they don't know how long their products will be in demand. Amazon works for smaller and growing firms who need flexibility, i.e. they don't want to take on permanent staff or premises to handle large quantities of stock, process orders, market their goods, etc., as they'd not be able to reduce costs quickly enough if the market dropped for their goods.

Yes i agree but thats not the consumers fault is it?
Thats down to the Govt, anti union laws and enforcement, the same can be said for any large warehousing set up here.

If you re going to slap on a £4 to £6 parking charge, just to go into town, many people simply wont go, that then reduces the number of shops and the stock they carry, making the shopping experience worse - more online shopping.....

We used to go to a well known Italian, been there for 25 years, council placed charges 24/7, trade slowed... few months later, it closed..... sighting parking charges, its now derelict.

It is the consumers fault because it's driven by consumer demand; consumer demand is driven by psychological marketing tactics. Capitalism thrives by "solving problems", often problems we didn't know we had until the idea was introduced - invented problems. How many iterations of Smartphone do we "need", really? How many varieties of Oreo? How many wardrobe changes to keep up with "fashion"?

All these things can be regarded as fun, nice to have, not a big deal. You don't "have" to buy them if you disagree with them. Correct. But if the vast majority curtails their consumerism, the world economy collapses.

And there are people who can't afford the basics, never mind the "nice to have things".

I could go on about this for hours but it's pointless because this is what we've got like it or not. And it sucks on many levels.

With regards to Amazon- we sell via Amazon, we also sell via physical retail and direct mail order. The thing with Amazon where it has an advantage is in catalogue items. For instance take perfume( not our market) if you go to say Boots - you will be able to buy mainly what's on offer from the bigger perfume houses- and mainly their most recent offerings they are pushing - if however you want something that's a bit more 'niche' or no longer flavour of the month- then it's likely you can find it on Amazon. They are brilliant for 'back ticket' items. Same goes for books or music. Also if you want a very niche 'thing' - Amazon is an easy search, whereas trailing round endless shops with limited stock often isn't.

We lived in Copenhagen for 20 months and it doesn't allow Amazon- although you can buy from Amazon.de , but with quite hefty delivery charges- so yep they do have a lot of thriving small shops in Copenhagen - but blimey I missed Amazon a lot .

The thing with Amazon though is they should be made to pay tax on all their UK business - to me where they have their 'base' for taxation reasons is irrelevant- it's trade that is enacted in the UK- this would put them on a far more level playing field for prices - and we would be using them more for convenience and ease of finding stuff aspects. People always say Amazon would walk- they wouldn't - it's one of their biggest markets and other country's have rules about taxation and they haven't walked .

I fail to see why it's anymore of a sweatshop than some call centres or certain care jobs and I believe the gvt have expressed that they will bring back a right to unions in any employers over a certain size.

In one end of our town, we had a very popular shopping street, literally full of shops and people. Council came along and made it "pedestrian friendly", ie. narrowed the road to stop parking and widen pavements. Not only that, but they took 9 months to do it, during which time, the roads and pavements were ripped up, left for weeks between sporadic work, meaning customers had to battle across uneven ground and around obstacles such as cones, barriers, piles of gravel, piles of slabs, etc. By the time it re-opened, many shoppers had given up and gone elsewhere. But even when open, lots of drivers simply didn't come back because there was no where to park except a new council car park a few streets away that was extortionate, something like £2 for 30 minutes. The street is now basically derelict with nothing more than charity shops, bookies, Turkish Barbers, tattoo shop, etc. Before the council "improved" it, it had a butchers, greengrocers, bakers, sandwich shop, post office, newsagent, chemist, etc. Some of these councils havn't a clue and must be working to an agenda!

High streets have also been pedestrianized at the same time that millions are sitting on NHS waiting lists waiting for hip and knee replacements They arent going to be walking up and down high streets and a good few of them will be older ppl with more disposable income,
Friend of mine has been waiting five years for a knee replacement and hasnt seen his pedestrianized high street for seven years.
So the timing of this was shit oh and theres disposable income and there is disposable income. Many will have enough to spend on the HS but not enough to go private

A sadly common story. With ever-shrinking budgets, you’d think councils would shelve their expensive and unwanted fantasy plans.

In some circumstances yes i agree but why haven't other countries seen such a step decline in their towns?

We've started using Amazon, not because local shops don't have what we want but because its too expensive to park and get what we want, thats not due to Amazon clever marketing, thats down to the councils.

The bottom line is many councils see car parking charges as a cash cow to dip into, now the fault may well lay with central govt and funding cuts but given some of the millions wasted on "Vanity" works in many town centres, perhaps the problem is with the councils themselves?

Again, Plymouth CC has decided to re work the city centre (again) its an absolute mess, half of it boarded up, been like it for months, as they sort out the mess they have created.... parking is a nightmare and if you can get it, very expensive for a low income area.

All they actually needed to do was replace/repair some of the original broken stonework, re turf, clean and reinstate the fountains.

Having a pretty town centre, wont bring back footfall and hence shops, if its too expensive to park.

People do want to go out and shop. Go to any out of town shopping centre and you’ll see it. Blaming it entirely on consumers is a misdirection.
People do want to go out and spend money in person. People are ordering online because they have been forced to. Even shops don’t have good stock in and I want you to order online to get the right size.
my 85 year old neighbour has ordered a dress online because she can’t find anything in the few shops we have left. It wasn’t her choice, she wants to shop.

@Alexandra2001

The bottom line is many councils see car parking charges as a cash cow to dip into, now the fault may well lay with central govt and funding cuts but given some of the millions wasted on "Vanity" works in many town centres, perhaps the problem is with the councils themselves?

I agree. In our run down seaside town, there was a lovely mosaic of the town's crest in the centre of the shopping area. Been there probably 50 years. Council decided they wanted some kind of "entertainment space" so they ripped it up and put it elsewhere. At the same time, they reduced the size of the adjacent car park by about 25% to create another "entertainment space". In the years since they've done it, there's been no "entertainment" - both areas are now just where the druggies and alcoholics hang out! No sane person would go there for entertainment as the "shops" around it are derelict or bookies or tattoo shops or Turkish barbers, charity shops or an opticians! There are very few "shops" left where people can actually go to shop! As for the mosaic, the damage was enormous due to cracked tiles etc - the council just put it down elsewhere and didn't bother to do it properly - no repairs of the cracked tiles, some tiles clearly put in the wrong place, etc. A few years later, they moved the damn thing again and caused even more damage. Now barely anyone even knows where it is, as it's not in a prime focal position anymore, and the damage is horrendous.

Typical council stupidity. They should have just left the sodding thing alone. It was fine where it was. Must have spent millions in moving the damn thing, and creating the "entertaining" spaces, not to mention reduction in parking income from the smaller car park. They're idiots!

@Alexandra2001

In some circumstances yes i agree but why haven't other countries seen such a step decline in their towns?

Certainly other European and Med countries are starting to see it. I think it's creeping other there too now. The millionaires/billionaires are starting to spread their wings and building shopping centres which only the huge chain stores can afford. Sadly, saw it in Paphos on Cyprus. When we first started going 25-30 years ago, it was a lovely little town, lots of small shops etc throughout the town, just a couple of "big" stores, one being Woolworths and the other being Marks & Spencer. Around 5 years ago (?) there was a big shopping centre built with all kinds of shops, inc fashion, a big supermarket, homewear, etc. There were entire streets of "old" shops nearby which had closed down - in fact most of the area between the shopping centre and the resort was very run down and pretty bleak. Further away, there were "out of town" supermarkets, a huge out of town Next store, etc. Very sad to see. The same in Limassol (also Cyprus) - a huge shopping mall on the outskirts with all the usual High Street stores, huge car park, etc., and again, in the nearby areas, lots of closed down/derelict shops, a general "run down" feel, etc.

Even closer to home in France, we've been to a particular village a few times. When we first started going, it had all the usual amenities, i.e. bakery, greengrocer, chemist, grocery, butchers, etc etc. The last time we went most of it had gone and there was a medium sized Carrefour-style of supermarket in the next town which had obviously sucked all the customers from the nearby village.

I don't think other countries are exempt at all. They're just behind us here in the UK.

I think some of this is changing tastes- not just parking etc

A lot of younger people in particular like these big modern just out of town complexes full of chain stores - and when they do like a bit of 'authentic' they want it disneyfied

Look at the popularity of somewhere like Dubai- ok the weather is a big attraction but I personally would never pick it over something like Palma or Florence- but many younger people would- they like the big blingy hotels, crap cocktails and huge malls- I actually thought it was pretty boring if I'm honest but I accept lots of others there clearly loved it