Baby Reindeer creator is provoking his stalker

[jengachampion]

SPOILERS AHEAD
I’ll preface this by saying I had a male stalker for 7 years. I moved, changed jobs, and deleted all social media in that time. I’m also a survivor of SA, as well as assault after being spiked, similar to RG in the show.

It completely baffles me that he would completely replicate his stalker down to physical likeness, occupation, accent, exact correspondences and references like hanging curtains.

He is clearly not too worried about people finding the real person, as well as her potentially contacting him again.

If it were me telling my story, I would change all identifying details of both of us, because I would NEVER want to go through it again. RG telling his story this way is hugely weird to me and really speaks to the theme of mutual obsession he hints at in the show.

Indeed. Have we not read mumsnet daily!

as an aside to the main discussion it might be worth noting:

People have a right to talk openly about their own experiences

Not in NI.

Even if you wanted to risk it media are restricted by the same law.

In addition to denying SA victims justice, we are also denied a voice, access to therapies and should we wish to ‘talk openly about our experiences’ we have to think of the poor rapist & be careful not to id him, or the ‘justice’ 🙄system will come after us

I haven’t watched the show so no idea how bad she was but your comment about him admitting he liked it a bit is interesting. I know a man who reckons he had a stalker. But he was often messaging her, flattering her, would arrange to go to the cinema, etc, go for walks. She thought he was interested and liked him but thought he was blowing hot and cold.

And yes she messaged him at times and probably more than he messaged her. But when she was kind of beginning to realise he wasn’t interested and was backing off he’d start it all up again! I did at the time think he was flattered by the attention but not interested but was giving very mixed messages

I'm also of the opinion that victims don't owe their abusers anonymity in how they tell their stories, even if the abusers are mentally unwell. Do you think that the abusers in documentaries also deserve compassion and anonymity? How about the man in the Tinder Swindler documentary, do you think that the women were provoking him by telling their stories? The man in this story is a comedian so he's made a comedy show about his experience, it's a normal way for a comedian to tell and process their story.

When I was a teenager I had an experience that at the time I classified as "careless unwanted drunken sex" and now I consider to be rape (perhaps even after being spiked). I tell this story like it's a hypothetical joke, even to my friends (as in, "if I were raped I would...."). I have found the process of telling the story in a way that makes people laugh to be healing, a way of me finally owning the narrative and of converting trauma into something I can use positively. If I were a comedian and able to actually make something original and funny out of the experience then I might also find that healing, I don't know.

One thing I will say is the woman who has been identified as his stalker denies that some of it ever happened. If this is true and he's made people identifiable while greatly exaggerating or distorting reality, that's a problem. If things happened in the same severity as he says then it's fine.

One person whose opinion about BR I'd love to hear is Terri's.

I don't think it's Richard Gadd's fault. I thought it was a refreshingly honest account that recognised his own issues and poor judgement and turned the "perfect victim" narrative on its head. He didn't shy away from showing himself to have acted really badly and being fame hungry. He openly admits he has made mistakes.

It's an awful lot of trauma for him to lay out there but that is his right to do so. His one man show about this has been out there for years, he has performed his show in front of many audiences so it was already out there. I can totally see how he would be unprepared for it to go as viral as it has done.

What I find more problematic is the people that have tried to track Martha down. I totally agree with a PP that it's like an episode of Black Mirror with members of the public intent on finding her and engaging with her, contacting both her and her previous victim. It's pretty clear from Baby Reindeer that Martha is mentally unwell and I think it shows an unpleasant side to modern society that armchair detectives spring into action.

I don't think the question is why is Richard Gadd, a victim of stalking, rape and sexual abuse acting in the way he is. I think the real question is why are members of the public intent on contacting and outing a mentally ill woman.

Does anyone have a link to the FB page of the "real Martha"? I just saw some press on a 58 yr old woman saying she's the real victim and I'd like to see it. I think it definitely sounds like the same person.

Does anyone have a link to the FB page of the "real Martha"? I just saw some press on a 58 yr old woman saying she's the real victim and I'd like to see it. I think it definitely sounds like the same person.

I think speculation on this is unhelpful.

I haven't looked into either of them, so you've done more there than he did.
Considering his rapist actually drugged and raped him multiple times I do think perhaps he could have gone to the police about that. Is anyone threatening his rapist? I actually don't know but I very much suspect the woman is getting the brunt of this unwanted media attention.

@CormorantStrikesBack
I haven’t watched the show so no idea how bad she was but your comment about him admitting he liked it a bit is interesting

It is interesting. I think that people are more understanding why women sometimes stay with men who are sexually or mentally abusing them even when they know and understand that they are being mentally or sexually abused but it's more unusual to hear of a situation where it's a man.

Look at some of the threads on Mumsnet where women complain about men who are clearly abusive but despite having started a thread listing their abusive still claim the are good men.

People are spreading names. Unlike ‘Martha’ there’s no tweets or an open Facebook stirring things up. So people aren’t so invested. It’s all revolting.

As to reporting it, there are a thousand reasons why victims don’t.

The difference is they don't have the male entitlement to make a Netflix drama about it where they will earn millions from their trauma even though it isn't strictly sticking to the facts. Imagine if a woman did that!

The real Martha seems to have two Twitter profiles.

Sorry, I’m not singling you out for quoting @RespiceFinemKarma because I disagree with everything you say. I think it’s horrifying how people are baiting someone mentally unwell for their own entertainment.

I can understand why men don't report rape as much as I can understand women not reporting it. What is bizarre if this is your choice, is then creating a Netflix show for profit and telling everyone it is based on reality then sitting back and watching people rip others to shreds.

Why could he not have reported this man before this drama to protect others?

The victim blaming on here is terrible. Massive tv production companies make dramas based on true stories and get little to no criticism. One vulnerable man tells his story and gets ripped to shreds.

I think he was incredibly brave to share his story, had no idea it would be so popular, and is now having to defend himself.

people can be really shitty sometimes.

‘Why didn’t you report it’ is a terrible, ignorant, cliched question only asked by people who are silently supporting the rapists around them. Disgusting.

I didn’t say I wanted to share it. Jeez. I just wanted to have a nose. That’s all. Nothing malicious or unkind or offensive.

Fuck me. I’m just trying to get through shit like the rest of us.

I agree with this

I feel so conflicted by the whole thing. I've only watched 2 episodes. 'Martha' is threatening, frightening, but also very clearly unwell. I've unfortunately seen her tweets not through searching for them but through others sharing them. The real individual is clearly not well and very vulnerable, and people are laughing at her online. I can't imagine what suddenly finding herself in this situation will do to her mental health. Assuming she's under the care of a psychiatric team, how will they even begin to approach this?! Do netflix have a duty of care here? The baiting of her (despite RG asking people not to) is just shocking - people seem so very disconnected from reality. This isn't just a TV show, these are people's real lives. On the other hand, RG has every right to share his story and she has committed criminal acts. He must have been terrified. It's all very complicated and ultimately upsetting. I hope this has helped him process what happened. I keep asking myself 'how would I feel if Martha was a man?' but Martha isn't - Martha is a very mentally unwell woman and I don't know how to feel about any of it.

@RespiceFinemKarma
I can understand why men don't report rape as much as I can understand women not reporting it. What is bizarre if this is your choice, is then creating a Netflix show for profit and telling everyone it is based on reality then sitting back and watching people rip others to shreds.

Why could he not have reported this man before this drama to protect others?

You don't know what his intentions are. Maybe he wanted to spread awareness that men can be raped and stalked and that it can be difficult to report it.

Do we know for a fact that he didn't report the man for rape? Even if he didn't then do you think he was wrong not too? I believe it up to the victims to do what they think is best for themselves. Many women don't want to report rapes and assaults.

So when it's a woman doing the stalking, she deserves sympathy and kindness?

He has the right to speak up about his experiences as a victim.

You'd be very very surprised about what "the usual" stalking victim would do. People do frequently have to be told not to do exactly that by police because it feels like taking bavk power. Vanishing from where they can be found whilst effective can make it feel like the stalker has "won".

I was raped by my ex husband many times over twenty years. I didn’t leave. I didn’t report it. If Netflix offered me money to tell my story..? Yeah, I might take it. Obviously, this is totally hypothetical. It’s not happening.

I was warned by Rape Crisis that I’d be ripped apart. That they didn’t take notes during counselling because these could be used against me.

I’ve been so moved by Baby Reindeer. Not only to tears, but a deeper, visceral pain. I think the fallout is a mess. I worry for everyone involved (as much as I can worry for people I don’t know.)

OK let's re-frame it as if you aren't going to report it maybe making a Netflix drama about it for global consumption isn't the best way to fix the problem.