To wonder about the OP whose daughter had ASD and she was going zero tolerance any associated behaviour for the happiness of her other child, herself and husband.

[Shestolemyboyfriend]

I remember a poster who had a daughter with Autism and was having meltdowns due to beig overstimulated al lot of the time. I think there were issues around misophonia around eating , control over the TV etc and who could be in the room at any time. The OP decided that the needs of the few were outweighing the needs of the many and had decided she wasn't going to engage with any of the behaviour any more as it was making the rest of the family miserable. She had everyone divided but it sounded so hard for the whole family with a seemingly no win situation. I wonder how she fared and how it all panned out. I have a friend in a similar situation and she is doing the same with her son, after some kick back the dynamic is totally different. I just wondered how it worked for her.

There isn't one "autistic communication style" though is there?
I'm autistic and have struggled with other autistic people in the past. Just because I'm autistic doesn't mean I can easily communicate with anyone else diagnosed.
To be honest I don't think there's one "NT" communication style either. Everyone is different.

Well NT people don’t have a hope in hell then do they!

Thank you @MargaretThursday and I’m sorry about your childhood experiences with your brother.

I feel terribly guilty about dd1. She has a therapist she goes to (self initiated) and I’m pleased she took this step and can speak to a professional about whatever is on her mind. Our relationship is in a good place now (I’m taking her to Paris this week) and she knows I take full responsibility for the huge mistake I made 2 years ago. I take extra care to check in with her regularly and ask how she is. But she’s hurting like you say and I feel so powerless to stop dd3 being so bloody awful to her 😢

Of course. But there are commonalities.

I think the issue about validation of feelings is interesting. I dont agree that all feelings need to be validated but currently that is the general narrative about how to manage all children, not just ND (and adults if you work with adults)

There are times of course when someones feelings are not reliable, in fact feelings are often unreliable. Acknowledging feelings is not the same as validating them

I think its a problem to do that as a blanket policy.

I think we are often between a rock and a hard place in terms of trying to navigate that though.

F

It is interesting! Because who gets to decide whether the feelings are valid?

I think there needs to be a balance. I'm autistic, diagnosed as an adult, and as a child I was just a 'shy, quiet, socially awkward, excellent student'. I never expected control over group situations, but then I avoided them where ever possible, and I would rather gnaw off my own hand than try and get people to do something the way I wanted.

I believe there is a distinction between 'bad behaviour' and behaviours that are a result of ND - autistic/adhd kids absolutely can be 'naughty', but some behaviours are as a direct result of their ND.

The problem with using phrases like 'fit into social society' and 'cope with everyday life' (not saying those exact phrases have been used here, and I'm deliberately staying away from using 'normal' at all), is that it places all of the responsibility on the ND person to change to fit NT 'life' - how can ND individuals make life easier for NY individuals. A great number of ND children are extremely good at masking at school - out of either explicit or implied necessity - so of course their behaviour at home will seem 'worse', because they don't feel the same need to mask.

Do I think ND children should get absolute control over everything? Not at all, and there is a distinct issue with siblings of disabled children being treated differently and subsequent problems that creates. However - and this is just an example - changing things periodically just for the sake of it (so no need to at all) is bordering on cruel; autistic individuals often dislike change because it's unknown and therefore unpredictable, therefore things staying the same if safer and reduces anxiety - why would you deliberately induce unnecessary anxiety?

It's a fine line, but we shouldn't view it as 'making autistic people do what we want', as that's just another pressure, and another expectation they can't live up to.

It is interesting, because of course feelings by definition aren't really reliable - there is no way to actually validate them as real or unreal, as they are unique to the person experiencing them, so in a weird circular way it kind of makes all feelings valid (but that doesn't make the expression of them universally valid - you can feel angry, but you can't throw things around the room, for example).

They may not be understood by others, and we may consider them very different to our own experiences of them, but nobody can say how another is actually feeling at any given time (and not just because we're autistic and can't always tell from facial expressions 😉).

I don't think changing things unnecessarily is always cruel. I think it's a good idea for ALL children to be pushed out of their comfort zone occasionally. You need to see with ALL children how far they can go. If you notice a child doesn't like change aged 3 so never change anything again, how can you know how much they can do?
I've used this example before. I have a friend with an autistic son. She took him to a football match aged 5. He didn't enjoy it. It was too loud. He couldn't focus. There was too many people. They left after 10 minutes after he had a meltdown. She tried again a year later. They left after 30 minutes. She continued to try over many years. He's now in his 20s. He is football MAD! He goes to all home games for his team and many away games. He plays football on a special needs team.
If she'd have never taken him after the first attempt he may never have got into football.
At the same time she tried him with swimming. After a number of attempts with zero improvement she gave up on swimming. It was just something he was not able to cope with and probably never will now. But it was still good to try.
Pushing autistic children out of their comfort zone occasionally isn't cruel.

I wasn't diagnosed until adulthood. So I was pushed to do things I didn't want to do as my parents didn't know I was autistic. But actually in lots of things it helped me. If I had my way as a child I would have spoken to no one. Not gone to school. Eaten the same food every single day. To be honest I still would quite happily stay home all day and only go out if it involved my special interests. But in order for my world not to shrink and shrink I force myself out to talk to people. To see my friends. Go shopping rather than use online all the time.
But I will never go to nightclub as it's beyond what I can cope with. And that's OK. I know my limits. But without ever having tested them I wouldn't know. And I'd be in my house by myself and feeling very lonely.

Was this not initially a thread because the dds feelings were that she alone controlled the TV, light, noise and who was allowed where in the house? How could those feelings EVER be valid?

@PaperSheet

But since he went again, I'm guessing the football match was enough of an incentive to try going again? As in, he was willing to give it another go. I say this, because they stopped the swimming - so clearly it wasn't enough of an interest/incentive to continue with it.

There's a difference between going outside of your comfort zone, and being made to do something you know you'll detest; you say yourself, you'd never go to nightclub because you know you couldn't cope with it (I'm exactly the same, by the way, so I'm not having a dig about it), yet as an adult it's fine for you and I to make that statement, but if your friends son had decided after the first football match he didn't want to go again, and maintained he didn't want to go the next year, would it have been fair to make him go in those circumstances?

There are cultural differences in NTs too, character differences etc. For example, some people are loud, some hate that. The difference for us ND is that loud can cause such sensory overload that it raises our adrenaline in seconds and we can burst. For NT it might just be an annoyance and a reason to gossip with your other friends and that's it.

In the example above, sure, society can learn to be generally quiet, but I personally prefer to tell the people (politely and sensitively) when they overwhelm me, rather than live in a world where all loud people have disappeared. Loud is sometimes fun, exciting, inspiring! I can't imagine going to an Iron Maiden concert as a youngster and not scream my lungs out along with everyone else. 😂

We live in a neurotypical world, and the vast majority of NT people already are looking after us and go out of their way to help us feel comfortable in my experience. Poor NTs on the other hand have no excuse when they react in unwanted ways! Humans being humans. Living under the same roof is hard sometimes. Living in the same society even harder. NTs NDs all in this together.

It definitely can work. Obviously there are exceptions but working in Special Ed it is easy to pick out the children whose parents have tried teaching them some social conventions, like turntaking. I will never forget the day i took ds to a play centre when he was 3/4. They had an area set up like a shop and all the kids were taking turns behind the till. It was ds's turn when a boy appeared and pushed ds over, hard onto the floor, taking ds's place. While I was shocked, picking up ds from the floor and comforting him, the mother actually looked on and laughed and said nothing until I asked her if she was going to tell her son his behaviour was wrong. She became very aggressive, shouting, "He's autistic". I replied, "He may be but all the more reason to to teach him some social cues". She became very verbally abusive and afterwards glared at me for the reminder of the session.. She obviously thought her child having asd meant she was absolved of all parenting and the child needed zero boundaries ... I often wonder how he got on in life. Obviously many parents of children with asd do not behave in this way at all.

He had no language at 5 to say he didn't want to go again or why he didn't like it. He didn't speak until 7. He didn't understand the game either at all. It was only trial and error over the years and building up to things. She tried quiet games. Sitting in different places. Gave him headphones to wear. Until they found things that worked and he started to enjoy it. But if she'd have stopped after the first game because he apparently just didn't like it he wouldn't have the love for it that he does now.
She also tried swimming for a few years. Trying different things. But it didn't work and it's obviously something he just can't manage/ doesn't like.
I tried many nightclubs when younger. But have decided they're not for me. But I didn't just stop after the first one either. Because as I knew from childhood, sometimes what you don't like/ can't cope with can change over time. But I think in my mid 40s it's unlikely to change now. So yes I don't think it's necessarily wrong for my friend to take her son a second/ third time to things he didn't seem to enjoy. She always left when it became too much. But if she'd have given up after the first go because he appeared to hate it (he couldn't say as he didn't have speech) then he would have missed out on so many friends and such a passion he has now.

Those aren’t feelings though, those are compulsive behaviours / inability to tolerate stimuli. Do some posters really think that the autistic person actually FEELS that they want to prevent others from doing things that make them happy?!

I dint think anyone thinks that the autistic person is being happy because they are controlling/prevent others to do things.

But the reality is that, in the receiving end, it is a controlling behaviour that has consequences. Esp when you are talking about children, living with a controlling sibling (or what feels like a controlling sibling) can also have long lasting impact.

What we are all talking about here are NEEDS.
And the fact some times, the needs of one person isn’t compatible with the needs of another.
Thats not even about NT vs ASD.
eg some autistic people struggle with noise and can’t cope with loud noises.
Other autistic people make loud noises as stimming.
Two very valid needs that aren’t compatible.
Same applies to NT. Not all of them like noise (I don’t cope well with it either). All of us need some control over our environment etc….

Then how do you deal with it?

We live in a neurotypical world, and the vast majority of NT people already are looking after us and go out of their way to help us feel comfortable in my experience. Poor NTs on the other hand have no excuse when they react in unwanted ways!

I don’t really agree here. My experience isn’t that NT people look out for us!

This is an issue we have a lot in our neurodivergent household. Four autistic dc with often conflicting needs.

I’m not saying it’s ridiculous. My issue is different.

Most autistic people say that understanding the way NT communicate is hard work, if not impossible because their brains are wired a different way.
There is also an agreement that making the effort to cope with an NT world is very hard, can lead to burn out etc…

Im assuming, due to the fact it’s linked with a different wiring in the brain, that NT trying to understand the ASD communication (wo going into the fact not everyone communicates the same way etc…) is going to be just as work for the NT. and exhausting. And maybe not really achievable either.

So I’m wondering how it would work in practice if you say that eg autistic people shouldn’t be masking at home so NT should learn and adapt to ASD communication. Which then makes home a non safe place for NT where they can’t be themselves?

Im not against NT learning about ASD or ASD communication (even though Ime there is VAST variation in how autistic people communicate).
I just don’t think it’s as simple as that.

See also my comment above about needs and competing/incompatible needs.

If you read Temple Grandin, who I think was one of the very first people diagnosed with autism, she has always said she only did as well as she has because of her father's rigid rules and structures.

That said - I do feel if we had imposed those sort of rules on DS when he was young that we would have had a very unhappy child and a very dysfunctional family, for many years. Maybe it would have worked out in the end - but I can't really see how without a lot of sticks (carrots never worked) and DS probably ending up scared or hating his life. As would we.

Of course you need to deal with life threatening or publicly inappropriate behaviours - sometimes by removing the child physically even if kicking and screaming - but generally we found that a much more flexible approach worked for us. DS is now 16 and an amazing boy, although he has many challenges (social and academic) ahead. But most of the things that were 'issues' when he was younger, are history.

I think every child is different and they all probably need a range of different parenting techniques. Hopefully most parents will find what works for them - I'm 100% sure there is no one size fits all!

So I’m wondering how it would work in practice if you say that eg autistic people shouldn’t be masking at home so NT should learn and adapt to ASD communication. Which then makes home a non safe place for NT where they can’t be themselves?

why would it mean that? Why would the autistic person unmasking mean that the NT person had to mask?

also, home is likely to be the only place the ND person is able to do that, whereas the NT person can be freely unmasked NT wherever they go?

They are not talking about ABA, afaics.

Are you saying that the autistic person should just rule the roost until such time ( if ever)as they feel like allowing anyone to not obey their every demand? Anxiety thrives on restriction, it isn't in fact assuaged by it.

@AllPrincessAnneshorses please reas the rest of my posts.
Also when people use terms such as zero tolerance they should understand what they are advocating for.

I think that probably the use of "zero" here is problematic, because it implies that no allowances would be made for any deviation from the NT "norm", however I think that many people, myself included didn't read the original thread in that way, and interpreted it to be hyperbole on the part of the Orginal poster, and was said in a way of readdressing the balance in her household, rather than actually implying "zero" tolerance in any shape or form.