My 4 year old is driving me insane

[upthewallie]

Maybe I'm expecting too much but she's just such hard work.

Every time we go to do something fun, she never wants to leave. She's so defiant.

Everything is ' NO '.

No matter what I try to do, she just doesn't do as she's told.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from her ?

For example today we went to soft play and when it was time to leave, I tried to distract immediately with ' hey susie let's go to the toy shop '. I genuinely was going to take her there and she was like ' NO ' so I said, we do need to go now though. So I went over to her with her shoes in my hand and she was sticking her tongue out at me and laughing at me going ' da da da da da ' and blowing at me. So I said, put your shoes on. She said no. Then I said ok I can see you're having trouble listening right now, so I'm going to help you. She was kicking me whilst I was trying to put her shoes on and sticking her tongue out.

Anyway I managed to get her out. I told her it wasn't acceptable and therefore we were not going to the toy shop because she didn't listen and she kicked me etc.

Later on I asked her about it and asked her why she didn't listen and kicked me when we needed to leave and she said she was just playing. I explained sometimes we can't just play and it's not nice to kick etc.

Anyway it's like this a lot when we need to leave places and I'm sick and tired of it.

Hair drying and brushing can be a challenge as well sometimes. It's very frustrating and nothing I do helps. Any advice ?

Kindly - I think it’s the opposite. You aren’t expecting enough! At 4 if my children were rude to me or didn’t listen, then there were consequences. It sounds like you are asking your daughter and not telling her. You are giving her the option to not listen and to make all the decisions, not you. You need to tell her that you are the parent, this is what’s happening right now and there are consequences if you don’t listen or are rude to me.

The more confrontational I am and the stricter I am, the worse she gets.

Later, after we got home, we needed to go out again so I said ' susie get your shoes, we need to go and do XYZ' and she was again like ' no ' ( in quite a loud, defiant shout ). I said, you're getting your shoes and we are going !. She ran around a couple of times again just laughing and eventually she put her shoes on. Usually it's not a huge issue and she just does it. But like I said, the more it happens and the more I react, the worse she gets.

I feel like she feeds off my reaction and enjoys me getting worked up. To be honest it feels really similar to when I used to get picked on by the boys at school. I got worked up and they'd find it hilarious and just carry on and on and on.

Was there any warning, or was it just "let's go to the toy shop" and then straight to "well we need to leave anyway"?
Only because I'd have taken the toy shop thing as a suggestion/choice.
Maybe "we need to go soon. If we go now we can visit the toy shop on the way out, or five minutes more play but then we have to go straight home" would have been clearer?

Kindly, I disagree with pp and I think 4 year olds are just like this a lot. My DS was! He is nearly 6 now and there is a massive improvement in his behaviour. They still struggle with self-regulation at 4 and having to leave something fun can be hard. I am sorry I don't have any useful strategies but it sounds like you handed the soft play situation pretty well!

There are consequences though. Not going to the toy shop was the consequence today.

Two days ago, the consequence was that she wasn't going to be allowed to have an ice cream.

Other times, she doesn't get a star or gets TV time taken away / doesn't get treats.

She also understands the consequences and gets upset about it.

I know people will leap on me for jumping to SEN as an explanation but my dd who is autistic was very similar at 4. The authoritative parenting style just does not work with DD, it’s very much a case of avoiding putting demands on her & dressing things up as a game. She also hates having her hair washed & brushed because she is very sensory sensitive. Does your DD have any sensory issues that you are aware of OP?

Sorry if you have already tried this, but do advanced warnings of change help?

So, 'dd, in 5 minutes, we are going to put shoes on and go', or 'you can have 3 more turns on the slide, then we need to go'.

Maybe a bit of a simple visual of what the day will be, so;

Breakfast
Play at home
Soft play
Lunch at home
Shopping

And so on?

Yes but I think it sometimes takes a long time to see the benefits of your hard work and setting boundaries. And they are so dependent on other factors like sleep, food, outdoor activity, parental attention. I'm not saying you are not meeting those things by the way , just think that you can be doing all the right things and 4 year olds will still be 4 year olds.

No she doesn't have any sensory issues I'm aware of. With the hair brushing and drying, it depends on the day.

If I've been quite firm and confrontational, she can be confrontational back and defiant.

It's like as soon as I switch my tone and manner to being like ' right we are doing this ' or ' nope you're not doing that ', she switches to being extra defiant and goes into this mode of just basically being naughty. I know that's not the right word to use, but sticking tongue out etc. classic ' naughty ' behaviour.

The sensory issues point is a good one.

But OP I think you're onto something when you say she feeds off your reactions. It's sooo hard not to get visibly worked up in these situations I know but the more you can avoid expressing that, you may find she doesn't play up to it. Firm but calm and when she does things like running around laughing, just find a fixed spot (like the shoes), look at it, focus on not reacting and don't engage with her behaviour. If you aren't "seeing it" she may well stop, as every performance needs an audience.

Are you giving warning of leaving places and doing things so she knows what to expect.

So 20 minutes before you want to leave susie you have 10 minutes of play left, when mummy does x y and z its time to say bye bye to softplay.
5 minutes before same warning.
If it helps do a 2 minute warning.

Then get out shoes/coat/pack your bag whatever is the leaving signal and say mummy is doing x y z now its time to go bye bye softplay. I also give a choice then of next steps or a choice of action so do you want to out shoes on or do you want help. Do you want your snack in the car or on the walk to the car etc.

Alarms also help us. So when you hear whatever sound its time to go. I let her choose the sound on my phone to make it more fun.

Not 100 percent fail safe but it helps alot.
Behaviour is also better when we've engaged more with her and she feels she's had attention.

Some children struggle with transition from one activity etc to the next ie you can’t just get her attention and say “right, we’re leaving, get your shoes on etc.” and expect that she’ll go ok then and do as asked.

Try giving her a 15 minute warning that you are leaving soft play (or wherever), then 10, then 5 mins, then with 1 min to go it’s time to get shoes on. Immediate consequences for refusing to do as asked (decide in advance what is achievable/acceptable).

DD was pretty defiant at that age and 1,2,3 worked pretty well with her. “I’m going to count to three and if you haven’t started putting your shoes on you can’t watch any tv this afternoon.” then being rock solid on following through

I've done the warnings as well. I also did it today.

I stayed totally calm today at the soft play, she still acted that way.

The entire holiday I've been with her and taking her to stuff. We've had so much fun, travelled etc. every day is about her having fun and us spending time together.

It’s hard when they are winding you up, but you really have to not let them see you react or be frustrated. You need to find the “Mum voice” which is your stern and authoritative voice, not angry, not louder, but a voice that means I’m being serious and not messing around now.

It sounds like leaving somewhere is a problem at the moment. I agree with a previous poster in that countdowns always help. Let them know you are leaving in 10 minutes, 5 minutes and then two minutes “ok just to let you know we are leaving soft play in 2 minutes, so go have one last quick run a round and one more go on the slide and then we’ll be putting on our shoes and saying goodbye.” No reward going to the toy shop just for leaving. We are leaving because that’s what is happening. If they kick off and have a tantrum, then you just calmly pick them and their shoes up and leave “I’m sorry you are upset about leaving, we’ve had a lovely time but unfortunately it is time to leave now” again as calm as you can, don’t let them see you are frustrated or wound up.

I think being reluctant to leave something fun is normal, lots of 4 year olds struggle with that. Things to try include a 5 minute warning, a choice (such as either would you like to go now or in 5 minutes, or would you like to put your own shoes on or shall I help you), a small bribe "once you have your shoes on you can have a snack", reminding them of expectations before you go to the soft play that you expect them to leave when asked.
Ultimately if they aren't doing what you say then follow through with a serious tone, put the shoes on and take them out etc, but remain calm. Ignore any histrionics. You getting worked up and angry isn't helpful, but nor is too much negotiation and explanation. Sometimes you will be dragging a screaming child out but they will know for next time.
One parenting tip I read is don't wait too long - so ask once them take them out - don't let them mess about until you're really annoyed!
It's a phase and it will get better

@upthewallie It sounds really challenging. However I do think kids need consistency, if they get a rise out of you even one in 3 times they will do it. It has to be a totally consistent approach. They're not reacting only to what is happening in the moment, but to the totality of their experiences with you and the expectations that has created. It's a form of training. If you're doing this all the time, then point taken, I was just going on your comment regarding the similarity to your experience at school, which suggested that sometimes she does "get a rise out of you".

@Antsinmypantsneedtodance some great advice there.
My four year old can be defiant and I spend a lot of time just being patient as I can. Praising the good, saying why it's good and talking about it. For bad behaviour, we have consequences.

Oh yeah she definitely gets a rise out of me, regularly! Just today I really really focused on not getting worked up.

Thankfully she's not actually having tantrums anymore when we leave places. She did used to have a tantrum every single time. I actually stopped taking her to many places for a while because it was so horrible.

She doesn't do that now but just acts cheeky like explained.

Some kids are just generally really strong willed. I carried my then two year old out of a park under my arm screaming and fighting whilst I was 39 weeks pregnant. Absolutely nothing worked, that was probably only one of a couple of occasions I've ever had to do that.

My daughter is almost 5. Now I find countdown works but I've had to be really regimented with it and no backing down. Sometimes we get to one minute left and she'll negotiate and say two goes on the slide and I'll agree to that because she's put a figure on it that she can work to in the time she has left. When setting the time to go I always make sure I've seen eye contact and she's understood so she is 100% aware. Sometimes there are tears and I just validate them as we walk away and add something like "You went really high on those swings today. Maybe next week we can see if you can go even higher".

Lots of good advice here.
I also find it helps for the consequence to be something more tangible, rather than a hypothetical trip to the toy shop that she might not have even known about. Something physical like a taking a toy away to make it instant - though I get this is hard.
My DD is 3 and terrible 2s were nothing compared to this.

@upthewallie Then that may be part of it... Unfortunately if she has got a rise out of you 100 times in the past, 1 time where she doesn't is a drop in the ocean. Her brain has been trained on a large data set, so to speak, and it isn't until the new experience of you not reacting outweighs the expectations that have been carved out that things will change. It's like carving grooves into something. There's one very deep groove created by one set of experiences that's happened many times, over and over, in the same place. A shallow groove created by one experience that's different will be barely visible, until you have gone over and over that same thing again.

I had to drag her out screaming under my arm pretty much every time we went anywhere when she was 2 and a half. She's so much better now in pretty much every way. It's much easier. Everything used to be a battle. Now it's just certain things and thankfully not many tantrums.

But it's still hard I guess because my expectation has changed.