To think you should speak the language after living in a country for 20 years

[Eastie77Returns]

Just back from visiting a friend abroad. We met 20 years ago as young expats in the European country she still lives in. When I lived there, she didn’t speak the language at all. In fairness she was employed as a nanny for a family who only wanted her to speak English with their children. However they also offered to pay for her to take private 1-1 classes with a tutor to learn the local language. She declined as she didn’t want to ‘study’ in her spare time. I worked for a company where English was barely spoken so I was forced to learn the language and I accept that if I was in her position I may not have become as fluent as I eventually did.

However fast forward to now. She no longer works and is married with children. She still doesn’t speak the local language beyond the bare basics. I stayed at with her family and her husband (a local) and children spoke to me in their native tongue. My friend only spoke English which is fine between the two of us but she cannot speak to her MIL who was also there but doesn’t speak English. I’m a bit baffled. The local language is hard but…20 years?!!

It obviously suits her not to learn - for whatever reason

I agree this is odd and most people would pick up the language despite themselves. I recently holidayed for four days in a European country whose language I don't speak but I made sure to "revise" basic phrases (where is? How much? Etc) and found the few words I know kind of echoing in my head while I was there - the language was all around me after all . I would have to make a conscious effort NOT to pick up the language in 20 years...

BUT maybe her brain works in a very different way and somehow it hasn't "gone in"? Baffled that she hasn't tried though. How does she go shopping or talk to her children's teachers or get the car mended or....

Hard to imagine its a comfortable way to live 🤷

I think it’s odd (and foolish) not to learn the local language if she’s had the opportunity to do so - which she clearly has. There can certainly be circumstances for some immigrants which make it very difficult for them to acquire the local language (and it makes them very vulnerable to abuse and exploitation) but this clearly isn’t the case for your friend - she has been offered lessons and her husband and children all speak the local language, so I can’t see why she wouldn’t make every possible effort to learn it. I couldn’t bear not to be able to communicate with my partner’s family.

It must also limit her independence a lot, I’d have thought, if she has to rely on her husband to translate for her.

Some languages are very hard to learn but I think it’s odd not to want to try.

Whenever I’ve met people in the UK who haven’t learnt any English, it’s invariably been the case that they want to learn it but haven’t been able to access the opportunity to do so. So it’s baffling to me that anyone wouldn’t learn if, like your friend, they have the opportunity to do so.

Couldn't agree more. We have a parent T work who's been here at least 6 years, has a child with special needs. And still doesn't speak a word of English. It makes caring for her son extremely difficult. Personally I think people who are permanent residents, should have to pay for interpreting services. It costs a lot of money.

I don't really understand how it's possible to have not picked up at least conversational ability when you are immersed in, and surrounded by a language for 20 years. Just from looking at signs in public, hearing people speak it, watching the odd bit of TV, glancing at a newspaper etc etc

Grammar, subtleties, nuance and so on is different, and I wouldn't expect fluency without lessons, but come on? 20 years and not even the ability to have simple conversations? I think you'd have to be consciously making an effort not to pick it up.

I find it really strange. I often encounter this at work, someone reports an incident but the parents don't speak English & a teenage child has to interpret. Most of these kids are born in this country. I find it mind boggling after what 15+ years in the country they don't speak enough English to deal with simple tasks.

It must put a lot of strain on the children having to interpret any interactions with people & companies. Presumably the parents won't have attended any parents nights at school either

It's really common and I don't understand why people don't make much effort/don't seem to care then get very upset when it bites them in the bum (hospital stays - family can't be there to translate 24/7, dealing with banks, bereavement and legal stuff, all things most people have to deal with at some point in life)

Whenever I’ve met people in the UK who haven’t learnt any English, it’s invariably been the case that they want to learn it but haven’t been able to access the opportunity to do so. So it’s baffling to me that anyone wouldn’t learn if, like your friend, they have the opportunity to do so.

I used to visit areas where many of the local population didn't speak English (mainly the women). These tended to be communities that had formed such as a Bangladeshie or Indian area. Businesses would also only recruit from within their community.

Depends on the language and daily exposure actually

No. Bilingual children are the best teachers, if she’s not picked some language up from them then she either really can’t or absolutely refuses. It’s quite possible she understands more than she lets on mind, understanding a language is easier than speaking it.

I'd say living in a house where your husband speaks to your DC in the language is pretty good daily exposure, actually.

Some people really struggle to learn languages, and some languages are much harder than others to learn. What language is it?
I've lived in Finland for 16 or so years and I'm still not fluent - I've been exposed to the language my entire life (Finnish mum), spent a year and a half in immigrant school and done several open university courses, currently in vocational school which is taught in Finnish, and I'm still only conversational enough to get by, but not enough to properly communicate (and writing is out of the question because of the grammar)

I think not speaking the same language as the MIL sounds ideal. Are you sure she hasn’t picked up more of the language, but is keeping the myth going so she doesn’t have to deal with the MIL?

No it’s stupid, she is no better than the large swathes of economically inactive women and men who live in this country and can’t speak a word of English.

Granted I only spent some few months of my college years working in a primary school, there was many children who had at least one parent who couldn’t speak English, usually the mother and it was such a barrier to their learning.

Because I grew up with friends from different cultures I grew up knowing a few different Arabic or Urdu words (mainly swearing 🤣) but I will never forget the 4 year old who acted out asking for “pani” over and over again, crying because nobody knew what he meant. I knew as a student helper it was Urdu for water and was able to step in. He was so distressed though not knowing why none of the adults understood what he was saying. I really felt for him.

His dad could speak some English but his mother was rarely seen and couldn’t understand a single word of English at all.

He was a lovely bright boy, and I often worry what happened to him, especially as a 4 year old he chastised me for “showing my arms” aka wearing a t-shirt one day in summer.

For a lot of people it’s where they have a fluent or native speaker to translate for them then they have no need to learn. I’ve had students translating for a parent when the family has lived in Britain 10 years plus.

I think learning languages are hard for some people, and it becomes harder as we get older. So - she may be a one of these people.
And - if the country in question is fairly easy to get by with English in a day/day life - she probably has never been really forced to make an effort.
Not being able to speak to MIL can be a blessing as well...

I work with a lot of people from Poland / Romania. Those in their twenties and thirties speak good English. Some have lived here since very young and I'm absolutely amazed how easily they switch between two languages.
Most of those in their fifties, sixties have limited English. Some have said they only need to know the basics.
Saying that, so far I've only learnt thank you in Polish.

There is no excuse for this these days, with Duolingo and other many free language aps - anyone who as a phone can learn for free, either from English, or from their own language into English

I agree. Saw it many times in my job.
Always needing a really expensive interpreting service despite living here for many years.

There are many British expats In countries like Spain, for example, who simply refuse to learn the native language as the whole community is British expats.

However, we have the same problem in the UK. Whole communities of foreign nationals who group together and don't seem to want to learn English.

I understand wanting to feel 'at home' but it doesn't help in the long run.

And I speak as a child of foreign parents .

Yes, but they often still wanted to learn it but were overtly or more subtly prevented, in my experience. My friend’s mum came over from Uganda in the 70s with only her sister, both teenagers, a year or two ahead of the rest of the family, and, living independently, they were quickly fluent — she says her conservative parents were furious, they thought it meant she was becoming ‘westernised’, and certainly the other women, who arrived en masse, in the family never learned, or not well.

Sometimes it seems like a concerted effort NOT to learn after that long.

Where we live there's a large community from one other European country that have been here for generations and yet it's common to meet members of the community who barely speak a word of English at all. The lady who cleans our office has worked for the company for over 20 years, living here all that time and more, and can just barely string a very basic sentence together.

I cannot understand people who say they are "bad at languages" and that's why they haven't learnt xyz language despite living there. You are speaking your native tongue and presumably ypu learned to speak and read that without too many issues ! So you are at least good at 1 language! And if you had been born in that country you'd presumably be fine at speaking it too!

Bad teachers absolutely cause issues and there's no need to be amazing at reading fancy books or whatnot. But if after 20 years you can't get about daily life I do wonder ....

Duolingo is fine up to a point, especially if you want to say things like 'The bear does yoga with his wife' in your chosen language, but not ideal for conversational fluency.

Whenever I travel abroad, I make the effort to learn some basics, hello, thank you etc. Countries I return to often, I've bought phrase books or nowadays, duolingo/watch you tube etc. I can generally understand more than I can say correctly, but do make the effort.
DH's friend has lived in Thailand 20yrs, and I know more words that he does!
I find it cringy and embarrassing when Brits abroad make no effort at all and complain about people 'speaking foreign!'
Maybe it suits your friend not to speak to her MIL, but to not be able to converse with her children is utterly bizarre IMO!