To think you should speak the language after living in a country for 20 years

[Eastie77Returns]

Just back from visiting a friend abroad. We met 20 years ago as young expats in the European country she still lives in. When I lived there, she didn’t speak the language at all. In fairness she was employed as a nanny for a family who only wanted her to speak English with their children. However they also offered to pay for her to take private 1-1 classes with a tutor to learn the local language. She declined as she didn’t want to ‘study’ in her spare time. I worked for a company where English was barely spoken so I was forced to learn the language and I accept that if I was in her position I may not have become as fluent as I eventually did.

However fast forward to now. She no longer works and is married with children. She still doesn’t speak the local language beyond the bare basics. I stayed at with her family and her husband (a local) and children spoke to me in their native tongue. My friend only spoke English which is fine between the two of us but she cannot speak to her MIL who was also there but doesn’t speak English. I’m a bit baffled. The local language is hard but…20 years?!!

I lived in the Middle East for years. I tried learning Arabic but didn't get beyond the basics because they all spoke English and wanted to use it on me!

Came on to say this

Some people struggle with very basic maths, some with spelling and some with second languages. We’re not all the same.

It’s tricky for English speakers, as people want to practice English with you and it takes a certain amount of assertiveness to push through and insist on using the local language.

The people who do best at this tend to be people who

a) enjoy learning stuff around them for its own sake anyway and are constantly learning from the things they see around them

b) have an independent and proud (even slightly prickly) streak in their personalities and dislike being “helped” or “looked after” - basically, the “STOP helping me, Mummy, I want to do it ALL BY MYSELF!!!”inpulse, only it’s the adult version!

People who have these traits look at the local language around them and learn from it, trying to read and understand all the signage and snatches of conversation they hear. They deliberately pickup the local language menu even when an English one is available because they want to do things properly and not feel/look like a stupid tourist. They brush aside attempts to practice English with them and just insist on using the local language, even when it feels hard.

If you don’t have these traits, it’s possible to live in an English bubble and never really get out of it. Eventually, the “habit” of grabbing English menus and drifting towards the English-speaking foreigner-handler in every social/work/lifestyle situation (in the workplace, in the station, in the restaurant, in the local government office) becomes ingrained and is hard to break. Lack of success becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as the person increasingly starts to believe they just can’t learn. And the person is getting older all the time, which actually does make things harder and knocks their confidence further as well.

I had a relative who lived in a European country for 7 years. She and her partner insisted on sending their toddler to an "International" nursery and primary school.

The relative was offered and refused language lessons: "Everyone in the office speaks English."

They returned to England only able to say "Hello. My name is..."

They'd have had a much better quality of life if they'd acquired the language.

Used to live in the Middle East and expats never learned the language. Instead, they expected everyone to know English.

Many a time I saw an expat visibly annoyed and raising their voice if someone could not understand them. 'Do- you- speak-English' they would say very slowly and loudly, with head shaking and gasps of exasperation, as if talking to simpletons.

It makes me laugh when people complain about foreigners not learning English in the UK.

Why does that make you laugh? People are limiting their opportunities in finding work, interacting with others outside of their community, putting pressure on their young children to act as translators, lose the chance to fully engage with wider society... I could go on and on. I don't find it a laughing matter at all.

I was thinking more of the people who speak English and move to Wales, e.g. those from England who move to live in Wales. There have been a few posters on this thread saying that it would be rude not to learn the language of the country you move to.

So he didn’t know the word for water but was able to “chastise@ you at 4 years old for showing your arms.
cool story bro. . .

I'm on the 'nextdoor' site. Not everyone is an expert at their own language. Sometimes I struggle with understanding someone's posts.

I agree that culturally some communities don't want people to speak English, or don't want sections of the community to learn.

In contrast I used to work at a college in Stafford, the ESOL classes were full of the wives of Gurkha's. They were eager to learn English but they could have survived not learning more than a couple of words because they were living in an army camp with others who speak Nepalese.

My mother raised me bilingual as a single parent.

Speaking to me in English and her native language while growing up in London.

So you don’t have to speak to children in your language only to make them bilingual.

You can and in my opinion ideally should speak both if you want to parent adequately.

How does the woman in the OP communicate with her children’s teachers, doctors, friend’s parents?

Yes, the people complaining are not usually those who are concerned about those people's 'opportunities'.

It makes me laugh because we Brits are notorious for going to other people's countries and not learning their languages, not engaging with their societies, but take huge offense when people come here and don't learn our language or engage with ours.

The only people I know who never learned language of where they are are "I don't need it🤷" ones. They live with their, work with theirs, shop in their shops. No integration. Now these are in few countries and of different nationalities.

Nowadays, we have million free tools for every language to learn it to some conversational level IF we want to. Fluency may not happen, but knowing basically nothing is ridiculous and bloody risky.
The only real exceptions would be learning disabilities and DV situation (being prevent by family which happens to some women in some groups).

I was a nanny abroad and had the same view as your friend re learning the language. I worked 24 / 6 and was employed to speak English so I wasn’t going to spend my only 24 hrs a week off at language classes, I’d have gone nuts. I was there 4 years though and picked up a bit just from being around the language.

My view was also that it’s a language spoken only it that country, a country I didn’t plan to stay in long-term, and I’d have been more inclined to learn if it were a widely spoken language like French or Spanish.

If I had eventually moved to that country on a permanent basis and had more time, then I would certainly have put in lots of effort to properly learn the language.

Bad at languages is an excuse. Everyone can find their way of learning a language. I speak 5 European ones and made lots of effort in different countries (moved to Spain with little spanish for an internship and only hang out w Spanish speakers etx)

My friend moved to China for his wife and learnt basic Mandarin in the first year. My other friend’s wife is Easter European, moved to Germany for him and was semi fluent after 2 years. You have to make an effort especially if you live in a different country. I would want to be able to speak to my kids teachers and the GP. I am
surprised Op’s friend hasn’t encountered difficulties yet, many European countries ask for basic language skills for residence permits (which UK citizens need now) and citizenship.

Either you're very old or exaggerating.

My db has learned Arabic and Russian during his years working abroad and so have many of his colleagues.

I'm in my 30s.

Good for your db, I only wish a minority would put in such effort. This isn't the norm though and you clearly have no experience yourself of the situation, but by all means comment.

As so often the case the first post nails it.

I know why you (or I) have that opinion, but commenting on others lives with “you should do this” or “you should be that” is actually quite nasty, and not the action of a friend.

I agree with you, I think it’s goodwill to learn the language of the country you make your home and also unfair on kids to potentially make them your translators.

I live abroad a lot and as a result speak 4 languages fluently (understanding 5). My only regret is living in Germany for a while and not learning German, due to being lazy. For once I just didn’t feel like going back to the basics of learning a language and struggling to have conversations so I took the easy way out and spoke English (I was in Berlin so most people did speak English to be fair), I regret it a lot now, because even though I don’t live in Germany anymore. I just find it ridiculous that in the time I did I didn’t bother to learn it (very easy if you stay in an English speaking bubble).

Now one of my goals is to learn German which will be a lot harder now I don’t live there but I kind of feel like I “owe it to myself” to learn it because I should have just done so in the first place.

Languages open up a lot of doors and just make integration (your own and the one of your family) a lot easier.

I personally wouldn’t marry someone who wouldn’t bother to learn a few words of my language and also would feel the need to learn a fair amount of the language of whoever I am with so we can both interact with the extended family as needed. Obviously my expectations would be a lot different if we lived in my home country vs theirs, but in general I think linguistic efforts should be reciprocated.

I have a friend who just left her husband of 17 years, in great part because in the 20 years he has lived in Switzerland he has never bothered to learn French (she is from the same country as him and speak very good French), and she was sick of having to translate everything for him, having to deal with all the bureaucracy etc… even now they are separating she still needs to help him out with everything related to him moving out because he is incapable of communicating himself. He hasn’t learned because he’s been living in his own bubble working within his own community, speaking only his language and pretty much not interacting with any native beyond what was absolutely necessary.

My dgs is Welsh.
My dm and a friend both commented that my dgs should be taught a more useful second language at school.
I told them he is. His first language is Welsh and English is a useful second language.
The arrogance of the English is astounding sometimes.

Expats who move a lot ime are normally wealthier, mother a trailing spouse, children in international school etc. Wealth negates the necessity to engage with the society around them. In some expat communities it would traditionally have been a status symbol to not to know the local language, certainly in the past. It would have created a separation between "expat" and "immigrant". Fwiw, I don't believe there is a difference.

I know someone who's similar to the OPs friend, living 20 years in the country, married a local, 2 children. She considers her children as foreign in their country and native to hers. They're older now so correct her when she insists they'd rather live in her country, they don't even visit once a year even though it's a cheap flight an hour away. Says she can speak the language but doesn't, she does understand some but having been around her I know she doesn't understand as much as she would if she regularly spoke the language.

Honestly I think it's a pride thing but over time things have changed a lot. The perception of local people on those long term foreigners who don't learn the language has gone from "I understand, it's a difficult language" to "You've been here a long time, it's disrespectful if you can't make basic conversation". I honestly think she's trying to overcompensate for something by forcing people to speak to her in English. It comes across as quite obnoxious and entitled after 20 years.

"expat" and "immigrant". Fwiw, I don't believe there is a difference.

Expat is temporary (eg. 2 years contract or 1 year for experience, no permanent residency etc), immigrant moves for long term or for ever.

That's fair. I should have been clearer though, I don't think there's a difference except snobbery.

Nope, in many countries there will be visa types to reflect the difference. (Singapore comes to mind)

@LeoTheLeopard there's a visa called "Expat/Expatriate"?