To think you should speak the language after living in a country for 20 years

[Eastie77Returns]

Just back from visiting a friend abroad. We met 20 years ago as young expats in the European country she still lives in. When I lived there, she didn’t speak the language at all. In fairness she was employed as a nanny for a family who only wanted her to speak English with their children. However they also offered to pay for her to take private 1-1 classes with a tutor to learn the local language. She declined as she didn’t want to ‘study’ in her spare time. I worked for a company where English was barely spoken so I was forced to learn the language and I accept that if I was in her position I may not have become as fluent as I eventually did.

However fast forward to now. She no longer works and is married with children. She still doesn’t speak the local language beyond the bare basics. I stayed at with her family and her husband (a local) and children spoke to me in their native tongue. My friend only spoke English which is fine between the two of us but she cannot speak to her MIL who was also there but doesn’t speak English. I’m a bit baffled. The local language is hard but…20 years?!!

Generally conversation in the country you live in is probably best.
I think it’s bloody rude to live in any country and not learn their language.
my ex-pil live in Spain and ex-Mil has made no effort to speak Spanish.

I lived in Portugal for many years. There was a large English speaking community there and some people didn't feel the need to learn Portuguese apart from basic phrases and words. Their children went to international schools, they shopped in supermarkets where all the staff spoke at least some English, all their friends were British or English speaking and they hung out in British bars. If they needed to interact with Portuguese bureaucracy they would get Portuguese speaking friends or local English speaking help services to do it for them.

The ones who did learn the language were usually those with Portuguese partners and who lived in areas with fewer foreign residents. I also found that other nationalities were more likely to learn Portuguese especially those from Eastern Europe and Russia although that may have been because the locals were less likely to understand their languages.

I think that you miss out on so much when you don't speak the local language and it's also quite rude if you are intending to make the country your permanent home. I know it can be difficult for older people when they retire to another country but it made such a difference to me being able to communicate with people in many different situations.

As an immigrant myself, you are not being unreasonable at all.

People definitely have different language acquisition potential.
Then there's your attitude and inclination.
The combination makes a difference even if you get exposure.

I know someone who only has to spend five minutes in another country to be practically fluent (five languages and counting) whereas I lived abroad for 6 months and was basics only.

A family member is Italian and lived here over 20 years, her DH is fluent in English and Italian, her step-daughter's were born in England so that's their first language, she works with English speaking colleagues.
Despite all that, her fluency is still limited and it has prevented her being able to progress her career as her language isn't good enough to take on managerial levels.

So I think her mind is just not very language plastic. Me too.

But to actively avoid opportunities to get as good as you possibly can send very short sighted.

When you acquire a second language through daily exposure to it (because you're living in that community) you use a different part of your brain and cognitive skills than when you consciously study a language (with grammar rules etc)

I've been abroad since 1994. It probably took me 6-7 years to feel fluent (and I've never studied the language formally) and it seems very odd to me that after 20 years she doesn't speak any of the language. (Even by watching The Bridge I found myself thinking "oh, that must mean X and in Danish they obviously form plurals by adding Y" etc. You just notice things if you have any kind of exposure to a language (and current linguistic theory is that that's the best way to learn- we no longer teach languages by giving grammar rules - we give examples and students extrapolate the rules themselves which is far more effective)

She probably knows far more than she thinks.

Reverse this and answer that she is from outside the eu. And moved to England 20 years ago and doesn't speak English...yeh...youm ain't so judgemental now!

When you have DCs you have to speak to them in your language and your languge only if you want them to be bilingual. It is easy to speak English at home for this reason. Native language with Dad. Native language at school etc.

She WILL understand and she will know far more than you think, plus the local dialect/words, so I would not be so arrogant personally.

It's interesting to see the responses here. So many people move to Wales but don't learn Welsh.

There are many British expats In countries like Spain, for example, who simply refuse to learn the native language as the whole community is British expats.

When we worked with the military in Germany I was amazed at the number of people who had no or little interaction with the local community and consequently even after 20 years knew little or no German.

Did you expect her not to speak to you in her mother tongue?

Impossible to raise Dcs without some knowledge, absolutely not credible.

Yeah I think she definitely understands the language a bit more than she lets on or realises. When the rest of the family talked together in their mother tongue she would often jump in with a comment (in English) so indicating she at the very least knew what they were talking about and her comprehension skills are ok.

She also knows lots of individual words so would say eg “can you pass me the <sugar>” and say sugar in the local language. She is just seemingly unable to formulate sentences. When we went out for the day I did all the talking in shops, bars etc. She now lives in her husband’s childhood town and English is not widely spoken so every day stuff is left for him and the kids to manage.

She has signed up to online courses to support her various hobbies so I asked why not take up a language course as well and she said she’s now too old to learn (we are the same age, early 40s). Which makes very little sense because I discovered she helps some of the locals with their English and some of her ‘students’ are in their 60s!

Her MIL and OH seem resigned to or accepting of the whole situation. He and the kids have to act as a translator when MIL visits and speaks to her DIL. I think they are all just used to it now.

Eh? I obviously expected her to speak to me in English.

The difference is learning Welsh doesn't increase the number of people you can communicate with.

Learning another language can be very difficult, especially when you’re an adult, some people find it really hard, especially if they’re monolingual and don’t know a great deal about their own language, so for example can’t directly compare for example the subjunctive in English and the new language as they don’t know what the subjunctive is in English.

I’m trilingual(ish), but I learned my second language as a child, which makes it so much easier. Our son started learning Swedish at the same age I started learning English, 18 months in and he is as fluent as an eight year old Swede. Where as I’m also 18 months in, I work, but as everyone speaks English that helps, my conversation is okay, but I’m finding written Swedish very hard, if I had to solely use Swedish I wouldn’t be able to do my job. Where as my husband has been learning Urdu from our son and I for about three years and I’d say he is fluent and has been a while, he picks up language extremely quickly.

I don’t think anyone should expect someone to learn another language, unless it is something they themselves have done to fluency.

Well I am not sure how you expected her to demonstrate to you, or why she should. I am sure she was giving you a chance to show off your skills.

Of whivh you seem very proud.

With her DCs quite rightly she should speak solely English.

How generous to welcome you to spend time with her family/culture.

Erm, did you miss the bit where she can't talk to her own MIL? I guess you think she is "allowing" her DH to show off his skills too?

What an odd comment.

Of course she can speak to her MIL.

I’m wondering how she gets on in life? We lived abroad for a while, and I needed to speak to plumbers, to get new tyres for my car, to speak to other mums at the school, to have conversations with DC’s teachers (and go to parents’ evenings), etc….

My partner is Greek so I have been learning Greek with Duolingo. I have completed lessons every day for over three years and I the skills of a 2yr old, which means I am rubbish. I have no plans to stop the lessons but I don't know if I will ever be able to have a conversation in Greek which I am not too fussed about. I am in my late 40s and I don't have an aptitude for languages. Part of the reason for doing the lessons is so I don't appear rude to my partners family and Greek friends for not attempting to integrate.

Oh I agree that folk should make the effort, just find Duolingo quite 'interesting' in terms some of the content. 😂
I have been learning a new language for 3 years, yet to actually visit the main country it's spoken in, but able to understand TV/film, podcasts, articles etc quite well now.

@AdriftAbroad1 the OP's friend cannot converse with her MIL. After 20 years she has not learnt the language of the country she lives in (and of which her DH, MIL and DC are natives) and her MIL doesn't speak English.

I have lived abroad for 5 years. I came here with about 5 words of the language and started a job in an Englisb speaking company. My husband is a native English speaker too. Our kids go to international school as part of our deal living here.

We did duolingo and took lessons but progress was very slow. After a full day in work, I couldn't concentrate on the lesson. I would forget everything and opportunities to practise with locals were limited. I would go to the shop and park and make people talk to me but there just wasn't enough exposure. We watch everything in the language, listen to the local radio, follow pages on Instagram dedicated to language learning. I have been plodding on and on and my progress has been so abysmally slow, but it's coming on, bit by bit.

We have a young family and our kids are learning the language as a second language but arent very good. They dont have immersion but they are so happy and settled and absolutely thriving in their international school that we don't want to disrupt that. TV is only in the language during the week and they go to clubs in the local language.

I have local friends but they just want to speak English. In fact, lots of people just want to speak Engish when they hear the accent.

Never in my wildest dreams did I think that I would be living in a foreign country for 5 years amd not speak the language well. I'm around an A2 and can get by but I need a translator for anything where I need really accurate information. I got an A in GCSE French and actually love languages! It frustrates me so much how slow my progress is. If I had constant exposure I know my progress would be so much better, especially after 20 years.

I notice that women are not always encouraged by their family to learn the new language when they move abroad.

I’ve lived in France for 17 years now and I’m far from fluent. I live in a city that is big enough to have a sizeable Anglo community, so 99% of my friends are English speakers. My DH is British too so we don’t speak French at home and our extended family are all Brits. I work in a largely anglophone environment so I don’t even get much French there. And to top it all off, I’m partially deaf 🤷‍♀️ I’ve never been able to just ‘pick it up’ by listening to the radio / tv / conversations, and it makes me very shy about trying to speak French as I can never be sure if I’ve heard correctly - never mind be able to respond appropriately.

my kids are completely bilingual though.

I've lived in Portugal for 17 years now and my language skills are still...basic.

Not for the want of trying - I started with Duolingo and then many online courses/apps, free classes provided by the local authorities, immersive residential courses, one on one weekly tuition; I've tried it all.

If I don't get all "British" and embarrassed about trying I'm actually not bad - especially if I know the context of the conversation or I'm talking with someone who speaks without the (thick) local accent, but the reality is that I live on a remote farm and don't have the time (or the inclination, TBH) to go and spend time in the local cafes listening to/talking the same mindless chitchat that I did in the UK and Dublin.

Added to that a thyroid op in 2018 that went wrong and left me having to learn to speak again - one of my vocal cords was severed - made me abandoned formal tuition. I might try again one day but it really doesn't affect my daily life.