to think that this is a really weird premise for a novel? (Lionel Shriver)

[stressedout1994]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mania-lionel-shriver-review-kd35wrtn5

I think that Lionel Shriver used to write really interesting and thoughtful novels, but that her involvement in 'culture war' stuff has made her a bit myopic and odd. The premise of this novel is that there is a world where it's considered 'discriminatory' to call people stupid, or to say that some people are more intellectually gifted than others, and she claims that this is "a millimetre" away from where we are now. I certainly think that some elements of cultural life are becoming a bit more low-brow, but it seems soooooo overblown and hysterical to pretend that we have a culture that valorises stupidity.

I am just a bit suspicious of people who honk on about other people being inherently more gifted than others, and how this is a special and important distinction. I sometimes think this sort of thing is borderline eugenics-y.

Interested to hear what others think!

@YaMuvva 'Big Brother' - I enjoyed that one too. My dad and I used to love reading and discussing her novels when I was a teenager. But I think the conceit behind this one is so ugly.

Just to say I am really enjoying all the comments on this thread and they are stopping me from studying !! Threads like this make me wish I could meet other MNers in real life :)

She's right-wing and xenophobic and I don't bother reading anything she's written now. A shame.

The sheer irony of the fact that she's anti-immigration when she herself is an immigrant to the UK. But because she's white, she doesn't count. She can help to uphold great Western values.

Ugh. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

How is the premise "ugly"?

If it's making you uncomfortable, maybe she has a point?

(I have read Kevin, the ending of which really irritated me, and Big Brother.)

@Geebray for the reasons I have addressed on this thread. I also think the premise is histrionic and overblown. There is no great conspiracy against the mentally able (apart from maybe in some state schools, where know-it-alls are inevitably bullied!)

But it's satire. Not a "state of the nation" novel.

You take one thing, and turn it into another.

Big Brother was based on Shriver's brother. They had a similar upbringing, same circumstances.

I used to loathe Margaret Ann Shriver when she was an apologist for Loyalists (not just Unionists) on the RTE mid day weekend radio discussion shows long ago (1990s probably), and have never felt inclined to read a book by someone so bigoted and inherently violent just because of a name change.

So cannot offer an opinion on this or any other book, but do offer my take on the woman.

Sitcom 30 Rock did this storyline years ago!

I read this on a plane, the twist made me furious and I'd never bother reading a LS book again!

(Possibly because I'd also just finished The Secret of Crickey Hall and it was fucking ghosts all along - if it wasn't an audiobook I'd have thrown it out the window)

The Handmaiden’s Tale is also overblown in that women aren’t literally forced into bearing important men’s children by the state. Exaggeration is inherent in dystopian fiction.

But I suspect it’s about more than intellect / stupidity and also about cancel culture and what happens when you deny a biological reality and restrictions on free speech and the impact of expanding the reach of discrimination law etc.. They’re interesting topics even if you disagree with her.

The impact of nature / nurture on intelligence is also an interesting debate. It sounds like you’re on the nurture side which is fine. But if you only expose yourself to that view it cements your opinion and you don’t gain much.

I also think the question “are we in an anti-intellectual society “ is interesting and not completely unreasonable given the influence of social media etc.

Why is she a violent bigot? Google is being useless

Good review for anyone interested in the Irish Times - accessed via the archive function (thank you to the poster who flagged the archiving service!) https://archive.is/yvVLt

I’ve just seen on Wikipedia (I know I know) that she opposes gender theory. This makes sense - she changed her name to a masculine one because she felt like a Tom boy but has NEVER claimed she’s a man. Seems fair and reasonable.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/05/to-be-truly-british-the-country-needs-to-stay-largely-white-really-lionel-shriver

I don’t think it’s even a remotely weird premise for a novel. Sounds like fairly basic dystopian fiction. I think you don’t like her and rather than just leave it at that, you want to act like she’s doing something completely bizarre or abnormal because “weird” is more stigmatizing than “wrong.”

What’s your issue with her name? She’s gone by Lionel since she was fifteen and I’m pretty sure that’s been her legal name for some time.

I suspect the name change (well into her 30s if not 40s, not 'age 15' as Google has it, was a deliberate ploy to make her earlier comments and commentary unsearchable when she left Belfast after the Good Friday agreement and in the comparative peace and prosperity that followed. She supported some very dangerous people - the likes of Taylor, Robinson and Donaldson used to disassociate themselves. Scary woman.

Personally, I'm totally cool with her changing her name.

I'm not cool with her wholesale adoption of right-wing anti-immigrant views.

I really like Lionel Shriver, and some of her writings have made me feel slightly uncomfortable and jumped back into my mind months later - surely that’s the impact a thought provoking author should have? I will read her new book. She has rightly commented about the chilling of free speech in western democracies and the subversion of language to cater to current political correctness. People should be able to to state challenging and controversial views (and be challenged right back if you disagree) without being harassed, cancelled or pilloried. She also seems justifiably irritated by the current celebration of victim status culture.

Definitely OTT about covid lockdown restrictions in my opinion, no-one had a clue what was likely to happen at that time so no point going on about things after the event.

I wouldn’t choose not to read something fictional just because some people (or me) disagree with their political views.

@Yanksplaining, she was 'Margaret Ann Shriver' on Irish radio during the 1990s, when she was in her 30s or 40s. She may have used the name Lionel in some contexts, and certainly published Kevin under it, but she uttered her support for violent paramilitaries in Ireland as Margaret Ann.

"Google" doesn't have it as anything. Multiple websites state it. Was she not known as Lionel when she was in Northern Ireland?

@nojudge As an American, I think we’re quite a ways away from assigning fertile women to elite men, changing their names, and forcing them to submit to rape in front of the elite men’s wives so they can have babies they’re forced to hand over. 🙄 There are serious discussions to be had about women and reproduction in the US, but “OMG, it’s practically The Handmaid’s Tale!” is overwrought fear-mongering. And yes, before you ask, I say the same thing to American women who make your same comparison.

I like Lionel Shriver. Often don’t agree with her but she’s one of the few writers who is brave enough to say what she thinks about things and to continue to make the case for fiction as fiction and for freedom of speech.

I don’t think she has claimed to cancelled though. She does comment on what she observes happening more widely. My point is, she is an exceptional fiction writer ( in my opinion). Her politics are irrelevant as far as me choosing to read her books or not.

Yeah, I looked up “Margaret Ann Shriver” with “Northern Ireland” and I’m finding zip.