Is this going to cause a massive family rift?

[Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor]

Sorry for length of this -

I have an older brother who is a little bit of a moocher - I’ve posted about him before under a different name. He has had a great education and many opportunities in life and has ended up, in his mid 30s, with no money and financially dependent on my mother. He never pays for himself and works a couple of hours a day, and that’s it. He is always feeling sorry for himself due to having no money, and therefore my mother/other siblings bank roll him as they worry he is depressed. I think he’s just playing on their emotions/using them (but I can’t be sure of this).

He is always asking us if he can do odd jobs for cash. We let him dog sit last year whilst we were away - fridge full of food for him at ours, 25£ a day etc, and he fucked off for 10 hours a day to see friends and left our dog crying (we could hear on camera after neighbour messaged asking if dog was alright)/had to get mother to intervene as we were abroad. Came home to a fruit bowl full of rotting fruit and fridge full of off milk etc.

Anyway we are expecting and he’s due to be god father as he is an extremely fun brother/uncle. We offered him 200-300£ to paint a wardrobe for the baby as he’s very talented artistically and his hobby is art related. He agreed. We set a deadline of 1 week for the work to be finished. 3 weeks later. 3 weeks of him lying (I can’t do it today as I’m working - turns out he was just at home chilling etc), showing up hours after he said he would, us waiting around for him….what he has painted is shockingly bad - he didn’t put the tape on properly and it needs totally clearing up/the non painted bits will need to be repainted to fix it. Anyway we basically said “if you don’t want to do this please just say as we had another person lined up”. No, he’s sorry but he’s not motivated. Ok, fine. So we have to get the other person to undo all his shitty work and the deadline was weeks ago and this has been a totally maddening experience.

Today he messaged asking for money for the time spent on it. On one hand - maybe he is depressed (although he is never too depressed to see his friends and do the things HE wants to do - dinners, lunches, cinema trips, gym etc) and he did spend some time painting. On the other hand he totally fucking let us down and it’s going to now cost us MORE money than the other person originally quoted as she’s not starting from scratch.

I don’t want to cause a huge family argument if we don’t pay him so do we just pay him something? What’s fair?

She needs to explain why?
It should go without saying surely 🤔

Could he have ADHD and not depression?

Before anyone jumps on me I have ADHD and he does seem to have signs of it.

Sounds like motivation is his problem but he's well able to do stuff when he's getting a dopamine hit.

You said he's also done very well at his jobs before but then decides he doesn't like it, ADHD job hopping is a thing, in your brothers case though he gets the freedom not to work because he gets cheap rent etc.

He was a pure arsehole about your dog though!

From what I’ve read about her brother I’m not convinced he’d get it tbh.

No wonder he is like what he is if you are making excuses for him. Why ask on here when you clearly are not listerning to anyone.
He is surrounded by enablers including you.
No way would this so called fun sweet uncle user be my childs god parent.

I’ve been following since the beginning @Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor - it strikes me that he’s a big kid, hence why he gets on so well with other kids. Things go tits up when people expect or ask him to do adult things. He’s simply not ‘grown up’ enough to do them. It’s like asking an eight year old to dog sit or do the painting… you wouldn’t expect them to do it. It seems he can’t either… unless as others have said, your mum passed and he HAS to suddenly grow up

You could be in for another 30-40 years of this nonsense with things getting worse after your mother dies. Putting your foot down now would be a good investment for your future health and financial benefit. Other people can enable him if they want but your children are your priority. Good luck!

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor

I think there is something deeper here. It’s reminding me slightly of my own family dynamic where me/1 sibling do all the checking up on DM, support, looking after : where as the third sibling (male) is doted upon by DM, but is needy himself rather than seeing that DM needs help.

It seems to bring out all the maternal instincts in DM and me/other sibling are just astounded by the accepted unfairness in expectations. But I suspect this has been happening all our lives : he is the male, needy, golden child.

However, we don’t intervene. Personally I think this is so deeply ingrained that change would be hard, futile - and I don’t think DB is happy. I see it as a lesson when raising my own children.
I’d compromise. Show the pictures, state the cost in correcting the work - and ask him what he thinks is fair. And ask him what he’d do in a similar situation if he’d asked for some Warhammer artwork on his wall.

That is a total mindfuck yes, I suspect I would be in trouble. But then I suspect I will be in trouble for this. I let my mother know he has asked for payment and payment will depend on the final quote from the artist. She ignored me and started posting family photos in the group with messages saying “this is what family is about”.

I’m sorry you are in a similar situation and I agree it’s so hard when you’re in the dynamic. I know to the outsider it looks like I’m just an idiot but this has been going on for such a long time it’s really hard to understand what it’s like. Even with the dog situation - I see everyone here saying it’s a big deal and it surprises me because my family minimised it so much at the time. Everything he does is just minimised.

DH strongly agrees with much of it / especially not paying him etc. but he agrees with me that he’s fun to spend time with and that there are plenty of people like this in the world - he’s not a father so the responsibility level or expectation isn’t the same. However I would never let him watch my dog again, or babysit.

I don’t know where you’re getting that from at all - I’m not going to pay him and im going to use this entire incident to change the dynamic

He should be doing it for free as a gift to the baby if he is going to be godfather so I would not pay him at all. Tell your mother he needs to have medical intervention, therapy or medication. Seems like he gets away with lots of stuff. Tell him you would love him to still be godfather but not paying for a half arsed shit job.

This is 100% correct. Very very sad. Will listen to podcast. Thank you.

Godfather?
Oh come on, he’s not even a Christian, is he?

Work out the hours spent on it at NMW if you really must, preferable reduced by the amount extra that your second quote is.
But really, give him nothing, the leech.

And for goodness think about what a godparent is. If you’re Christians - he’s the wrong person. If you’re not Christians, having a godparent is just odd - any other religions you pinch bits of for fun? He’s already got a role: he’s an uncle.

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor

And another mindfuck…

I have a DD and DS.

DS has ASD, is needy and tends to bring out my maternal instincts. I could absolutely still see him living with me when I’m old and still mothering him.

DD will be the sorting things out.

I’m determined not to let this happen.

I appreciate your input but this is definitely not the case with my brother, at all.

he spent, believe it or not. An hour or so a day for a week on the pink painting. It was insanely slow, not rushed.

he also would never agree to do work without demanding first to know the money he would be receiving. I actually realise now it was maybe relevant to say I had offered him “200-300£ for the wardrobe, depending on the end result” - because he always wants more money and I wanted to motivate him (the irony).

with dog sitting I offered 20£ a day plus a food shop and he still negotiated me up to 25£.

YANBU, but I would pay him simply to not give him and your siblings ammunition against you. Then stop agreeing to things like the dog sitting or asking him to do something.

Also, find someone else to be God father.

He is not suffering with depression. Depression renders people unable to get out of bed, turns them into monosyllabic, withdrawn shells of themselves who will not engage with the world who can barely string a sentence together, let alone socialise with friends. He’s playing you

he’s not a father so the responsibility level or expectation isn’t the same. However I would never let him watch my dog again, or babysit.
What's that got to do with anything? Seriously OP, stop being so stupid and blind. Babysitting is a thing for many a teenage girl. I remember babysitting 3 children when I was 12. I coped with that responsibility and expectation 🙄

My DB was similar. DM paid him for lots of little crappy jobs "because he needed the money" then complained about the quality of those jobs and the amount of cleaning up after him. You know what happened after she died? His life imploded, he has no clue how to be an adult and he is getting increasingly angry at the world. I told both DM and DB what would happen and it has. It's very sad, but it's also not my problem as only he can fix it but he won't because he doesn't see it's his own behaviour that needs to change. You, but especially your mother, are actually harming your DB every single week. You are handing over knives to a self harmer, a drink to an alcoholic, a packet of drugs to a drug addict, money to a grifter. This is the poor, poor man who abuses animals and doesn't even hide the fact he does it. Remember that, he wasn't even ashamed about harming or hurting another living creature. And you want him around your children? Start saying no.

I think you need to kill them with kindness here OP - maybe a little cry about how worried you are about him, painting is his hobby so he must be so depressed not to be able to motivate himself to do this when he can do other things like go to the pub, obviously giving him money won’t fix the root cause but you’ll make him a GP appointment etc etc etc.

Or you can just be brutally honest and ask why his feelings always matter so much more than yours

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor I think at times you are getting a hard time on this thread. Yet again getting the blame for your brother’s behaviour. I know what it is like to have a difficult family member albeit a different scenario. It is frustrating and you feel helpless. Also, what a lot of people do not understand, is that it is a bit like the boiling frog analogy where the frog doesn’t jump out of the water but gets boiled alive. It all happens so slowly / has been your normal for so long that you simply allow more to happen that you would in normal circumstances.
So for example, if I was your friend and had agreed to look after your dog and behaved like that I expect our friendship would have been terminated. However, because he’s your brother and there have been years of allowances and excuses from everyone you let it go.
You have now had your wake up call. Yes, later than it might have been but it has happened. You are on the right path about assessing how to treat him / have expectations of him. Well done.

I’d also pay a nominal amount but that is it.

You have three options as I see it

1. Pay him, and don't have him do anything again for you at all. Distance yourself a bit from your family

1. Don't pay, tell him he's done a poor job and you're not prepared to pay.

1. Explain to him you're not happy with the outcome, show him the pictures and tell him he can either come and fix it straight away and you will pay him, or you will get someone else in to fix it but he will forfeit his payment.

I understand to a degree, we have a similar dynamic in our family where everyone minimises one person's actions, I have stepped right back from that person as nobody is prepared to change, they know it's happening but it's too much hard work to fix it now because it's gone on forever. They all know I don't play along anymore so I don't really have to deal with it.

Interesting that your mother is basically subsidising his rent, I wonder if you and the other sibling get an equal / fair amount of support from your parents as well?

As for £300 to paint a wardrobe, the work he has done is shoddy and shouldn’t be paid at all and you need to stop this dynamic of subsidising him with “odd jobs” as it is perpetuating him not seeking meaningful employment

Seems to me you're all enabling him, with a particularly unhealthy dynamic at play between him and your DM.

When he neglected your poor dog was the time to go nuclear. He's a (supposedly) grown man in his 30s, ffs, not a young teen who doesn't know better.

And of course he is there for every child’s events and christmases/birthdays etc: fun and games, free food, yay...He'll be an absent and self-centred godparent, but you know that already.

I understand why everyone is focussing on the godparent parent thing but he is there for every child’s events and christmases/birthdays etc and he is a wonderful uncle. I know he’s not responsible but my other brother (who is extremely responsible) has never had to have the children alone etc so I don’t particularly expect DB to have to carry out any actual responsibilities - I think it’s more of a ceremonial role these days.

For clarification, in case anyone else is currently in baptism country, the role of a godparent has not changed. It is to teach the child about God and faith, to show them how to pray, to regularly take them to church and to encourage them to seek confirmation once they are old enough.