Torn on this. Autistic little lad in restaurant.

[EggsBenedick]

Hi all,

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread. I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this, as the family in question have asked to put in a complaint to the restaurant along with them.

We were eating an all you can eat type place, mostly Indian / Bangladeshi cuisine. I've added this as this may be relevant from a culture perspective.

It's a nice place, not somewhere too posh but not your run of the mill everything you can eat for a tenna place. Was quite busy in there too.

Seated next to us was a family of 3, with a little lad about aged 8 or 9. After he came back with his plate of food he took his jumper and T shirt off. People were looking over but the parents didnt seem bothered by it.

A member of staff came over and asked the parents if the boy could put his top back on. The member of staff was pretty polite initially. The parents refused to ask the boy to put his top back on. The staff member then went to get another member of staff, who came over and said he just put his top back on during the meal or they would have to leave. The mum then said to the waiter 'if we put his top on he will just scream the place down and ruin everything for everyone'. And explained that the child is autistic.

The parents made no effort to put the top back on the boy.
The staff member said to the family that they would have to eat quickly and leave. By this point the mother was visibly upset and indirectly spoke to us saying 'I wish my son could just be accepted.'

The boy was completely topless in the middle of the restaurant with lots of other diners around.
They had a few mouthfuls and came over to our table and asked if we would leave a Google review complaining about their time at the restaurant and how they aren't inclusive or family friendly.

AIBU to be torn in this? I'm genuinely intrigued to hear people's opinions on this. I could see how difficult it was for the mum. But on one hand I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant. But, the child shouldn't be confined to their home to eat. I would be concerned about strangers / men looking at my semi - naked child most of all.

I don't think I am going to do a review as I can see it from the restaurants POV also. I said to the mum that I was sorry she had such a stressful time. She clearly needed support. The dad didn't say or do a lot which was most helpful!

Maybe discipline is too strong a word.

But eventually the child will become an adult, so will at some point need to be taught that clothes must to be worn in public, whether he's sensitive to how it feels or not.

The restaurant could have bent the rules so the family can finish their meal. Yes we should teach rules to autistic children too but maybe they’re trying ? I wouldn’t have cared at all and yes the restaurant should be more inclusive it’s a child not a fully grown man.

Pretty much this.

From the Ops description it doesn't sound like it was a top notch gourmet dining establishment, but more likely a place which presents as 'family friendly. Maybe 'family-friendly' places these days should be expected to welcome disabled & neuro-atypical family members, and that this should be the norm?

Also, maybe the rest of us should adjust our expectations accordingly and get used to them (same as we get used to dogs in some restaurants with seemingly much less fuss)?

The child's mother shouldn't have approached the Op to ask her for a review....but maybe she was, you know, desperate for support?

Maybe they were feckless parents who didn't care about their DC's behaviour or the impact on him or others.....or maybe they were working on his behaviour in their own way/at their own time, and decided to pick their battles & not to fight this one?

I don't know for sure, but I don't think the sight of an 8-year-old shirtless child in a restaurant would have put all that big a blight on my day.

I have had too many experiences of bad treatment in restaurants when with my disabled DS to have anything but sympathy for these parents. Plenty of things....being told to quieten him down (when outdoors - indoors we take him out if he gets loud), being told to move him away (except for safety reasons which of course is fine), asked to move to a ghetto secluded area, told outright they want us to leave ('maybe you can get a takeaway instead').

Not all places of course, most are welcoming to us and (I think) still manage to escape complaints from other guests. The ableism of some posters is evident on this thread in how intolerant some people are of difference; it has actually been suggested on here that such families should refrain in perpetuity from visiting restaurants unless/until their DC can behave 'conventionally'. It has been a really saddening read.

@Jumpingthruhoops

discipline is the word the poster I was replying to used.

yes, they will need to learn, but I'm sure the parents know that.

its not necessary to make an issue of it at 8 years old, in a restaurant. no one knows what else he'd already been dealing with that day, or what else they might have on that afternoon. That he'll need to deal with.

They did let them finish their meal.

That's the point, though. If the child doesn't learn now that tops should be worn in restaurants, then he could still be exhibiting this behaviour when he's a 'fully grown man'. You know that, right?

But what if it's an autistic grown man or woman who needs to do that ?

Wouldn't phase me in the slightest

But any of the customers in the restaurant could be 'dealing with stuff'.

Sorry, but it can't just be this one family's needs/feelings that are taken into consideration. Life is just not like that.

People's ability to remain regulated increases with age and cognitive development. You know that, right?

Yes I am aware that it wasn't, thanks.

My question was what if it had been?

@TwigletsAndRadishes well that would be a whole different thread?

What's the relevance to this one?

Discrimination arising from disability occurs when a disabled person is treated unfavourably because of something connected with their disability and the unfavourable treatment cannot be justified....Treatment can be justified* and will be lawful if it can be shown that it is intended to meet a legitimate objective in a fair, balanced and reasonable way. This means that a service provider must strike a careful balance between the negative impact of a provision on the disabled person and any lawful reason for applying it"

I think expecting customers to wear sufficient clothes in a restaurant can very easily be justified*

This

Different perspective but my son is severely autistic. He’s non verbal and has very limited understanding. When he was younger he would remove clothes, take food off of peoples plates, sit at other peoples tables etc and as much as it broke me we had to stop taking him places. We worked really hard teaching him when out of the house he had to keep clothes on and eventually it paid off.

He’s an adult now. He doesn’t strip anymore when out of the house thankfully . We all want acceptance for our children and young people but there is a limit.

I feel a bit mixed on this. A top less child wouldn't bother me, however I'd probably notice it with a child of that age. As the parent I can understand that they just want to eat their meal as stress free as possible and not upset their child and risk a meltdown they have to deal with in public. However the restaurant have the right to put in place whatever rules they feel appropriate for their business and clientèle and requesting all people are moderately dressed isn't unreasonable.

I wouldn't be putting a review on for the family unless I felt strongly about what happened.

If we're talking about the general public, then yes. But we're talking about someone with autism, a condition that affects cognitive development. So presumably normal rules don't apply.

@exerciseshmexercise why do you keep making this about you?
Yes if you were dressed inappropriately for my restaurant I would turn you away. Indeed I have turned away a family group last summer because the dad was wearing swimming shorts and flip flops. But, that was about dress code, whilst we aren't fine dining - i do expect people to be dressed appropriately for a restaurant.
This incident the OP refers to, I believe a decision was made based on health and safety and it could have been an NT child and the decision would have been the same. The 'autism' side of things in this incident IMO is a red herring, no one should be in a restaurant without a top. Spaghetti straps, short shorts etc are also risky to wear, and if I felt there was a risk, I would rather turn someone away than risk an insurance claim.

No it wouldn't be a different thread at all - we're asking what is considered 'appropriate' in a restaurant. Most people on here have said they don't have a problem with an 8yr old boy being naked from the waist up in a restaurant. But they would have a problem IF that same boy was still taking his top off in restaurants at 28. So, in that same vein, PP is asking if people would have a problem if the child was an 8yr old girl? It's a fair question.

People seem to be making several assumptions here.

First that an autistic meltdown is like a tantrum, like something that is done on purpose in order to get their own way. It's not, it's more like a panic attack. The person isn't in control of it, it's where they are becoming overloaded by stress and their brain reacts by activating all the body systems that activate when you're in fear of your life.

Do people think that autism is just a disability where children have more tantrums than usual? I suppose that explains the idea that people think it's just bad behaviour, or why people keep asking what if he wants to take his pants off, what if he does it when he's 15 etc.

Secondly that the family knew the child would take his top off. Presumably he's not completely averse to clothing because he came in wearing a jumper and t-shirt. Maybe it's just something he did in the moment as a response to the environment? It makes sense to have a word with the staff to make them aware if you know it's likely to happen but maybe they didn't know he was going to do that, and the "he'll scream if I put it back on" is probably just them being aware that he's close to a meltdown.

What is so offensive about a semi naked child?

Because I don't really see much difference in the argument that goes:

'He's 9 and has sensory issues so he really can't be persuaded to put his top back on. It's traumatising for him. He's autistic, he can't help it, so you should be more inclusive and understanding.'

And:

'He's 19 and has sensory issues so he really can't be persuaded to wear his trousers or underpants. It's traumatising for him. He's autistic, he can't help it, so you should be more inclusive and understanding.'

While I agree that some autistic children will learn to regulate themselves better as they get older, plenty can't and won't. Does that mean our tolerance of autistic people undressing in restaurants should have no age limits put on it?

@Concannon88

20 pages in and you quote the whole first post and add …. Nothing.

So annoying and pointless.

Ever been to Asia? Having spent half my working life in the subcontinent I can tell you that no one, but no one, objects to children showing their upper body. If we're bragging about showing cultural awareness, let's get it right and not try to impose misplaced Western prudery on other cultures.

But of course your reply was integral!

False equivalence.

Agree with PP. Don't think the topless child was a huge deal, I do think her asking you to complain was unfair, but people need to be more tolerant.