Torn on this. Autistic little lad in restaurant.

[EggsBenedick]

Hi all,

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread. I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this, as the family in question have asked to put in a complaint to the restaurant along with them.

We were eating an all you can eat type place, mostly Indian / Bangladeshi cuisine. I've added this as this may be relevant from a culture perspective.

It's a nice place, not somewhere too posh but not your run of the mill everything you can eat for a tenna place. Was quite busy in there too.

Seated next to us was a family of 3, with a little lad about aged 8 or 9. After he came back with his plate of food he took his jumper and T shirt off. People were looking over but the parents didnt seem bothered by it.

A member of staff came over and asked the parents if the boy could put his top back on. The member of staff was pretty polite initially. The parents refused to ask the boy to put his top back on. The staff member then went to get another member of staff, who came over and said he just put his top back on during the meal or they would have to leave. The mum then said to the waiter 'if we put his top on he will just scream the place down and ruin everything for everyone'. And explained that the child is autistic.

The parents made no effort to put the top back on the boy.
The staff member said to the family that they would have to eat quickly and leave. By this point the mother was visibly upset and indirectly spoke to us saying 'I wish my son could just be accepted.'

The boy was completely topless in the middle of the restaurant with lots of other diners around.
They had a few mouthfuls and came over to our table and asked if we would leave a Google review complaining about their time at the restaurant and how they aren't inclusive or family friendly.

AIBU to be torn in this? I'm genuinely intrigued to hear people's opinions on this. I could see how difficult it was for the mum. But on one hand I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant. But, the child shouldn't be confined to their home to eat. I would be concerned about strangers / men looking at my semi - naked child most of all.

I don't think I am going to do a review as I can see it from the restaurants POV also. I said to the mum that I was sorry she had such a stressful time. She clearly needed support. The dad didn't say or do a lot which was most helpful!

What is your problem?

I'll wait for your little mate @trackertoo to piggyback off you in a minute.

They were sat in front to us. He was in my line of vision. Did you want me to turn away and make it look like I was disgusted at the sight?

I wasn't offended by a semi naked child. I actually spoke to the mother at the end. I have said in the post that the mother obviously needed more support and the dad wasn't doing anything.

But now you're making up a narrative that I was starting at him.

People were looking, yes.

It's a bit unusual to see a junior aged child just coming out of wonder in a restaurant without a top on. But you knew that.

Doesn't mean I was harmed or offended.

And what if it was his underpants he had taken off? What if it was a 12 year old girl with developing breasts and no man in the place dare look up from his dinner plate for the duration of his meal in case he's accused of looking at her? At what point does this autistic person who arrived wearing a t-shirt and a jumper but suddenly can't be persuaded to wear either, become old enough for it to bother you?

15? 25? 45? And if he refuses to get dressed, would it be ablist to ask him to leave, or should we all just tolerate having to look at an adult's armpit hair and nipples while we eat, rather than risk them having a meltdown?

It's all very well his mother wishing 'he could just be accepted' but she's still got to do some actual parenting here, because people won't be tolerant of this when he's a teenager. She needs to start preparing him. If he really can't cope with the simple requirement to be adequately clothed in a restaurant then perhaps they should not be taking him to restaurants just yet. He's not ready.

Why has my reply been deleted? Are you not allowed to mention reddit on here?

Just coming out of winter*

Perhaps owners and staff at an Indian or Pakistani restaurant whose culture includes covering/modesty?

female staff whose religious beliefs might not allow them to touch an unrelated partially undressed male?

if this is the case who takes precedence? They staff and their culture, or the autistic child?

Apparently it's 'chain restaurants', only on nights PPs aren't dining there, obvs.

Everyone is hell bent on this being about the child being ND, as a restaurant owner I can assure you it is all to do with public liability and health and safety! It is not safe for anyone to be in a place serving hot food without some kind of covering on the majority of their body. In the same way we don't allow small children to run around or get up from the table without a parent to take them, I've seen hot drinks tipped over onto customers (usually by themselves not staff) and it's horrid to think if that kid had something like that happen.
So you need to stop focusing on the Equality Act etc and recognise it for what it is

This.

@EggsBenedick I can form my own opinion, because you don't like it, that's fine but I can voice it.

I suggest you look at the people you are having dinner with,

You've not come across as caring, you've come a cross as judgemental and goady,

The mother was dealing with it, the father doesn't need to jump in as well?

But another judgement by you.

She should leave her own review. Autistic or not I just don't think this is appropriate in a restaurant setting. If he can't cope with clothing then a dine in restaurant is not the place to be taking him. All the people saying they can't see an issue would have a blue fit at a bare chested 22 year old autistic in a restaurant. I see no difference. If we are going to excuse the child because he's autistic then we have to make the same allowance for the 22 year old autistic who also cannot cope with the sensation and restriction of clothing because he can't read situations either or understand what is appropriate behaviour because of his condition.

None of this would bother me, child or adult, I’d think it was unusual however there is no harm or malice.

Also wonder if restaurant were concerned over issues if he got scalded etc from hot food on his skin.

But not all autistic children are like yours.

Many autistic children won’t ever go to college or uni. A proportion will struggle to even “thrive”. You’re lucky that yours are in such a strong position. That’s great, genuinely.

Not all autistic people can learn to adopt social norms that the world insists on. And attitudes like those on this thread are why there’s still so much stigma and shame around invisible disabilities.

Not all autistic children can “just learn”. In the way that someone in a wheelchair can’t “just walk”. People never take invisible disabilities seriously.

An 8 yr old eating without a shirt on isn’t hurting anyone not wildly defying social expectations - we all see topless 8yr old at the park, swimming pool etc. Sure a restaurant is unusual but it’s not as if he’s sat there fully naked. I accept that not everything can be accommodated, but a young child with their shirt off seems like such a small thing and yet it would have made a big difference to that family.

It does absolutely no harm to let the boy eat without a shirt. He will already have been coping with multiple other sensory issues - noise, presence of people, smells, unfamiliar place etc. It may well be that as coping with texture clothing issues on top of all that is just too much.

Going out to environments like this give him the best possible chance of developing coping skills. Forcing him to stay at home until he “behaves” is just going to mean he reaches adulthood without any of these valuable experiences and is less likely to be able to function.

Genuinely makes me so sad to read so much judgement and lack of tolerance.

And yes, I have autistic DC, one with high needs, and I’m autistic myself.

If that is the case, they need to ban anyone in a vest top or t-shirt and who has a short skirt or shorts and/or flip flops on

@TwigletsAndRadishes so much whatsboutery!

It's wasn't his underpants, it wasn't 12 year old girl.

Unfortunately autism does get grown out of. The senory issues around touch and pain with distress is well established, but not well known to all.

I give an example of my child. Bath time, always great until drying time. Even as a baby he would scream but age 4 I asked the Autism Socity for help. Stop using soft towels, make them rough and dry him as vigorously as you can. After toying with the thought that felt like abuse I did it and that was it, cured.

The light touch of fabrics is percived as pain. Its part a medical condition. And distressing to him. He was so upset when he wanted all to see his Thomas Tank Engine top but it hurt to much when leaning the eat. He did go topless but we advised the staff at time of booking - luckily near me everyone was supportive. Inquisitive rather than judging and made him smile if they asked to see the t shirt.

He has learnt ways to distract from it as he has learnt how to manage his autism and found words to describe it (rather than meltdown screaming) He describes it as a toe being stubbed every time the fabric touched him as he ate or played. You could see him wincing - that I thought was a tic at first. The Autism Society spotted he didn't do it with the shirt off.

yes

and the response will be to attack, name call and refer to past trauma

It is about the child being ND though. And in this situation reasonable adjustment should have been made. I do take your point but in this case the Equality Act is relevant - as you can plainly see by the attitudes of some who are blissfully ignorant that it’s not OK to suggest that disabled people are hidden away so as not to cause offence.

Guessing because many of you are coordinating trolling of the op from another board and you admitted it.

the only has this thread for her entire mumsnet history under this name

ah reddit i see

I've not read everything.

I have an autistic child. We have had stuff like shoes and socks off on the cinema while I rub his feet. But only in the seat. He wouldn't be allowed to walk up and down as it's a h&s issue. I've had to lay down in the supermarket with him because he's melting down.

It's tough because the child doesn't understand and the parents are likely struggling. But it's a safety issue, if a hot sauce drops on him. There's also the hygiene aspect of it.

For me this is something the parents need to manage. So either they find a suitable top or vest or something to wear instead . Or they don't go to restaurants that have this policy. Or they negotiate a time amount that he has to wear his top for and use distractions to support him for the time frame.

This isn't about the venue not being inclusive. This is about the venue having health and safety and hygiene concerns around a child being topless.

What? I saw it had been posted over there, no one is co ordinating anything, well not that I’m involved in anyway.

It’s also been called out as as a goady thread on two other sites that discuss mumsnet now. It’s not those people that are trolls.

So would they ask a mother breastfeeding to leave in that case?

I couldn't care less if a child had no t-shirt on at a restaurant, it doesn't impact me in any way. But I can understand if it is not allowed on safety/insurance grounds with hot food and drink there.

Breastfeeding mothers don't usually strip off to feed their babies.