Torn on this. Autistic little lad in restaurant.

[EggsBenedick]

Hi all,

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread. I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this, as the family in question have asked to put in a complaint to the restaurant along with them.

We were eating an all you can eat type place, mostly Indian / Bangladeshi cuisine. I've added this as this may be relevant from a culture perspective.

It's a nice place, not somewhere too posh but not your run of the mill everything you can eat for a tenna place. Was quite busy in there too.

Seated next to us was a family of 3, with a little lad about aged 8 or 9. After he came back with his plate of food he took his jumper and T shirt off. People were looking over but the parents didnt seem bothered by it.

A member of staff came over and asked the parents if the boy could put his top back on. The member of staff was pretty polite initially. The parents refused to ask the boy to put his top back on. The staff member then went to get another member of staff, who came over and said he just put his top back on during the meal or they would have to leave. The mum then said to the waiter 'if we put his top on he will just scream the place down and ruin everything for everyone'. And explained that the child is autistic.

The parents made no effort to put the top back on the boy.
The staff member said to the family that they would have to eat quickly and leave. By this point the mother was visibly upset and indirectly spoke to us saying 'I wish my son could just be accepted.'

The boy was completely topless in the middle of the restaurant with lots of other diners around.
They had a few mouthfuls and came over to our table and asked if we would leave a Google review complaining about their time at the restaurant and how they aren't inclusive or family friendly.

AIBU to be torn in this? I'm genuinely intrigued to hear people's opinions on this. I could see how difficult it was for the mum. But on one hand I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant. But, the child shouldn't be confined to their home to eat. I would be concerned about strangers / men looking at my semi - naked child most of all.

I don't think I am going to do a review as I can see it from the restaurants POV also. I said to the mum that I was sorry she had such a stressful time. She clearly needed support. The dad didn't say or do a lot which was most helpful!

@GabriellaMontez

why??

No worries! We are both thinking the same! Thank goodness.

I think the real issue is the mother didn't attempt to disapline her child. I think it does depend on the type of restaurant also! It isn't really appropriate I'm 50/50 as I can see how the mother may just be fed up too!

Why would a chain restaurant be easier to work up from? This was a buffet restaurant so there’s no even the wait for food to contend with

Asian culture ( in many places) would consider being without a shirt extremely bad form. Similarly wearing shorts in a restaurant. Usually shirts like a polo shirt, collar and short sleeves would be their minimum, rather than Tee shirt.

Everyone saying it's ok at 8 (and tbh it wouldn't bother me ) , what age would it not be ok at? Why do you think he'll suddenly be able to wear a tshirt at the cut off age?

Then it's the issue of health and safety and hygiene. Hygiene maybe not such an issue with a young child, but being topless offers a huge area for burns and scalds. Clothes probably wouldn't help much , but still.

Then you have the social contract. Abroad it even goes past this as restaurants can and do refuse to serve people that are topless, even children.

"I 🤔 think it's unhygienic for child to be topless,

@Noyesnoyes

Why?

Cause its warm day, a child or adults can sweat, giving Body odour vibes stink in the restaurant,

which is a bit on the unpleasant around food..

@JPGR

do what if it was an
8 year old girl?

their chests are pretty much identical at that age.

That’s a disgusting comment.

Hi OP, I have 4 neurodiverse children 2 of which are autistic. Both autistic children have serious sensory issues but nonetheless I'm not on the side of the autistic lad's parents. Yes I want my children to be accepted but whilst I will fight tooth and nail for neurodiversity rights, at the same time my children have had to accept many of society's rules and regulations if they want to have 'normal' lives. So at age 4 keeping any clothes on my eldest was hell, but by age 8 we could have happily have taken her into any restaurant. Leaving teaching your son to age 8/9 how to behave in a restaurant is not going to get any easier. So whilst I wouldn't blink at a child being topless, I feel the parent's dramatic statement about wanting to have their child accepted is simply asking for forgiveness for not bothering to parent.

I agree. None of those things are universal rules.

The great thing about that is we can choose to stop following them if we realise they no longer make sense.

We have societal norms for a reason. I'm not saying they should all go and let chaos rule.

When it comes to a child eating without a t-shirt on we can look at that and say "that societal norm is outdated, it makes no sense and doesn't consider ND people".

Maybe you are correct and other resteraunts would be more understanding but there are plenty of people on this thread who have said if the child can't wear a top at dinner they shouldn't be able to go to resteraunts.

Abroad isn’t subject to the Equality Act which dictates that this kind of behaviour towards a disabled child is discrimination.

I agree with this.

And we’re supposed to believe that someone so lovely as to be concerned about a child’s privacy/dignity, would post this here to be insensitive to parents of autistic children. Anyone genuinely mind would have kept this in their head and worked out what to do themselves. It didn’t happen though and was purely posted to attract other ableist and goady posters.

@trackertoo disagreeing?

How can they disagree when I've stated I'm on the fence about it and I can see both sides.

I have thoughts on autistic folks out in the wider community being an sen mum and I find I'm constantly torn between wanting the unrealistic level of inclusivity the neurospicies deserve but also keeping them safe, free from judgement and mockery and abuse.

My wee autism is a screamer in places and whilst in autism utopia I could take him to decent restaurants and it be accepted, it's not fair on other diners. Nobody pays for a meal, be it a fiver or five 100 to listen to my dc shriek on a loop because he's over stimulated.
What's unfair on him though is when he is happy and not noisy, but has Fidget spinners or his ipad and diners complain, even if the ipad is low or he's wearing headphones. He can't shriek or run amok, he can however sit and rock and do his stimming quietly or flap, that's just who he is and if anyone wants to start over that then... go the fuck ahead, I'll finish it.

The boy you're talking about in the op must have some very intense Sensory issues and it's not a new behaviour for children or indeed autistic adults to strip, I'm unsure now what protocol is but back when I started working with autistic adults (back when it was referred to as learning disabilities and challenging behaviour but they were all autistic, just too old to have grown up around the time of that being a diagnosis that was recieved) we were supposed to dress the individuals who would strip off in long sleeved leotards, often ones specifically designed for people to not be able to undress themselves. It was seen as being "naughty" even in adults. It is clearly a Sensory issue wearing clothes and of course, adding extra layers to already distressed autistic people made the issue ten times worse, resulting in violence and self harm. So in the spirit of a society inclusive of autistic individuals, allowing them to be topless makes sense. However with that arises concerns of dignity, vulnerability, abuse etc, so its too much of a risk to allow people who don't have the capacity to understand what being topless or only in underwear means for them when out with the general public. So then there is the other alternative of offering these people safe places to be able to strip to an extent, or use fidget toys and do the clapping/flapping without any judgement, but is that just a modern day version of institutionalisation?

I really am conflicted here, I want society to include my son, I desperately want us to go places without the staring etc, or me having to tell some stuck up wee gobshite I'm not telling my dc to stop his flapping. But I also appreciate that autistic behaviours aren't what society expects and if my dc or any other autistic person is behaving inappropriately for the setting, then maybe the setting does have to be much more suitable for their needs and even though it does feel like sweeping autistic folks under the rug, maybe for the individual they'll be happier in general being a space they feel accepted.

Told you I'm conflicted 😫

The parents attitude would really annoy me.

If they were really apologetic to the owner and even just asked the kid to put his top on, I would be more inclined to side with them but considering they acted like they could do what they want is really entitled.

Of course kids need some leeway, especially ND ones but they also need to follow the rules.

If this was a teenager or adult man fully naked or masturbating, we would be saying their parents/carer should be trying to stop them.

Although this child wasn’t harming anyone, they need to be taught right and wrong from an early age.

I’ve worked with many autistic kids and some do take their clothes off, which when they’re 5 years old is bad enough but then they turn into teens and develop breasts and for their own dignity and safety cannot be taking their clothes off in public.

Yeah 8 year olds are known to be sweaty!

By that comment, surely no one am a wear vest type tops, because you know hygiene or sweaty armpits.

No woman can wear tops showing there tummy etc.

What would the difference be?

I find the saddest thing about this is the OP decided to make a goady thread regarding this young boy not wearing his top when it’s hard enough being a mother of a child with autism, then having your public humiliation shared on a mumsnet.
The Mum might use Mumsnet, and if she came across this, she’ll probably be mortified.

She was wrong to ask you to leave a negative review. If her son can't keep his clothes on in a restaurant then I think they shouldn't have been there, it doesn't matter what kind of restaurant. It's a generally accepted thing that when you eat at a restaurant you are wearing clothes.

This is something I've been thinking about. I'd know if it was about my child and it would be awful to read some of the posts here.

But you're then saying people can't voice their opinion because it upsets you!

Your view that it's because of predators in the restaurant is ridiculous, it's really not likely.

That’s disgusting. Poor family! Who was he hurting? If the child wasn’t autistic and just being difficult then that’s an entirely different matter

Yes, this is true!

An 8 year old child not wearing a top in a restaurant? I can't believe they didn't call the police.