Is this nonce behaviour and what do I do

[Opinionsprettyplease]

• I've just collected dd(10) from a playdate at her friend's house; her friend lives with her mum. Dropped her off fully dressed, collected her four hours later and she was in PJ's, after having a bath with her friend. Apparently the mum put them in the bath after they'd got sweaty playing nintento.
• on sleepovers there, the mum has allowed DD come into her bed in the early mornings, when friend has woken early and gone into her mum's, leaving DD alone; DD has followed and they've all snoozed together for a few hours. (I'm not 100% sure about this, but planning to question dd about it today)
• she has a "special cuddle" with DD (and her own DD) whereby she pulls dd's head into her boobs and snuggles her. It's all fun and games to DD.
• she is constantly pushing food on DD, not just during playdates, but sending it home with her afterwards, sending it into school for her via her daughter. We're talking things like big chunks of chicken pie because "she loves my chicken pie"

I've known the mum for about 5 years, as long as the girls have been friends. She has a creepy co-dependant relationship with her own daughter, lavishing constant doting attention on her and treating/keeping her like a baby, and all the above behaviour is part of this. She seems to see her behaviour as mothering and completely natural and harmless.

I've always felt she crossed lines, but dd loves her and I thought I was just jealous of their relationship. I know I'll get a bashing for letting this go on, I've always struggled with boundaries for reasons that are a whole other story.

But the boobs. And giving a visiting child a bath on a four-hour playdate. I just can't imagine a scenario where I'd do that.
I'm thinking that if she was a man I'd be reporting her for predatory behaviour. Is this that different? She's still using DD for her own gratification, even if it's not sexual?

I had lessened contact in the last year or so, but am stopping it altogether now (not with the friend but with the mum, she can have playdate here or at friend's dad's house.) I'm talking to DD this evening. But:

• I know DD will kick off; I've half-heartedly objected to their sleepovers a few times and DD has been really upset and I've gone back to thinking that it's just my own insecurities and allowed things to continue. I can't think how to explain in a way that she'll understand and believe that this behaviour is not on, and not just me being jealous and a killjoy.
• I can't decide whether or not to contact the mum and explain why we're cutting ties. I feel it would be the most efficient thing to do, but an a bit wary of her, she's surely psychologically unsound.

Thank you for reading and I really do appreciate any advice.

YABU: it's overbearing but just have a firm word with her.

YANBU: cut contact, she's dangerous to dd

I’m with everyone here - her behaviours is seriously not on.

I feel that both your daughter and you have been subtly groomed over the past 5 years to feel this behaviour is supposed to be normal. It’s not. Not two sweaty ten year olds bathing together nor the cuddles in bed with a friend’s mother. I’m afraid I might even call one of the hotlines as this reeks to me. She could have cameras in the bathroom for all you know!

I was regularly molested between 8-9 by a neighbour (and too innocent to understand that this was what was happening until I was older) so I may be hyper sensitive, but in this instance I would be banning my child from going there and I’d be calling someone (social services, NSPCC?) as, tbh, I’d be concerned for the woman’s daughter too.

Ffs my dd is 10 and isn’t allowed on sleepovers full stop. All of that horrifies me. Start parenting your child and protecting her from predators

Dear god this is wrong on so many levels. My dd is 13 now but she started her periods at 10 and was fully developed, she wouldn’t of dreamt of getting a bath with anyone at that age and I think something isn’t quite right with this whole situation.

Yes, it is nonce-like behaviour. If a man was bathing 10-year-olds (either boys or girls) together, snuggling them in bed and giving some form of ‘special cuddle’ you would be absolutely outraged. It makes zero difference that your friend is a woman.

Is she a nonce? We don’t know. Is this nonce-like behaviour? Yes it bloody is.

As I primary teacher I think you should tell the school you've grown increasingly uncomfortable with some behaviours from a parent, put what you've said here in an email.

Sometimes people are unknowingly holding a piece of a larger puzzle and children arent protected because those adults don't speak to each other.

Definitely stop all play dates and in an ideal world I'd be telling the parent you no longer feel comfortable with playdates.

I'd trust my gut. I've got a 12 year old on a sleepover at the moment and haven't needed to do anything but make their food! We have really strict rules on privacy including knocking any shut door before entering. I'd obviously give a hug if she was upset but I'd go for a side hug. I'd be so uncomfortable with what you describe

Absolutely inappropriate. Women can be paedophiles too, it's much less common but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it does. The level of attachment your daughter has to her is another huge red flag. I would absolutely be concerned about what else she has been doing. It sounds like your daughter wouldn't hesitate to keep a secret from you for her.

She had no reason to bath your child, so why did she, if she didn't need to, then she wanted to. There is no amount of filthy a kid could get, bar getting dog shit all inside their clothes, that I would ever consider bathing someone else's child. At the very most I would offer a change of clothes and let them change themselves.

She puts your child's head between her boobs, if I did that to your husband you'd consider it a sexual act wouldn't you.

It absolutely sounds like grooming, and really could have already progressed to more becuase your daughter clearly dotes on her, so she's (and I'm sorry to say) fair game for this person.

It sounds to me like the mum is cosplaying having two daughters and has no idea of boundaries.

While her intentions may be benign accepting this behaviour from an adult means your daughter is less likely to spot red flags if someone else crosses boundaries with nefarious intent.

Kids naturally start pushing away from adults with puberty so she will probably be mortified by special cuddles really soon, as will the friend.

To me, following friend to get in bed with the mum is ok in a little one IF getting in next to the friend rather than the mum.

10/11 year olds may choose to bath together (I did with my best friend) but at that age their baths / shower time should be private whether one child or two

I think you will need to have a chat with your daughter but don't envy you as you wont want to upset her or make her scared. I would have a general chat about boundaries and nudity and that it is her body, her rules and not to do anything that feels uncomfortable to her - it is ok to say no to adults

The conversation with the mum also wont be fun. But - you have to do this to stand up for your daughter. This is a problem for the adults to sort out and your daughter and her friend shouldn't be in the firing line.

I wouldn't raise every single issue with the mum at once or contact while you are feeling emotional. Maybe start with the bath and that this is not ok - in your family you draw boundaries in a different place to her and you think it better of her DD comes to your house rather than your daughter to hers for the foreseeable

In a year the two girls may be going to different secondaries and their friendship may wane - if not they are bound to get self conscious and find the other mum creepy themselves.

I was about to day yabu because I assumed your daughter was much, much younger

But this at 10? Absolutely fucking not.

Even parents should start to cut down bathing their children at this age, 10 yo's are more than capable

I wouldn't have sent mine back after the first time of pushing their face into her boobs and would have reported to the school.

The thing is, it's about what your daughter is now getting used to expecting from adults.

It might be innocent, but your DD now is accustomed to being allowed/welcomed into an adult's bed with them. Also to being pressed close to an adult's chest (ew, two horrible sentences to type!).

A big part of safeguarding is modelling what treatment and behaviours children should and shouldn't expect from adults. This woman is blurring that line badly, at best. It is dangerous because this erodes your DD's perception of what is ok for an adult to do and what isn't.

I would personally confront the mother and ask her for an explanation.
I'd do this to absolutely call her out and also I'd want her to feel uncomfortable.
I don't think she is doing it for sexual gratification (but who knows!!) but it is WILDLY inappropriate and very wrong of her to bath a child of that age without prior consent from you (who'd undoubtedly say no)
Sweaty playing Nintendo? Sorry... absolutely outrageous,

Sexual predators also do lead up to more serious abuse. I had an awful experience with a friend’s dad at their house. I won’t go into details about it. I was only seven. The ‘lead up’ to this was he would always sit us both on each knee and make sure his hand was underneath my bottom. I thought he was being nice and I was the awkward one who had sat on his hand every time.
By letting this woman push your daughter’s head into her breasts you’re not helping her understand what’s normal boundaries. If the woman gets away with that she could easily escalate it. Do not let this woman near your child again and you need to speak to your ten year old about boundaries. You also need to discuss this with the school

Thanks everyone for the comments, including the ones that were hard to read. I'm seeing things a lot more clearly than I had been. As luck would have it, we have a power outage and my phone battery is running low so I can't reply individually, or again for the next few hours.
I was never in any doubt over cutting contact, they won't be together again without me or a trusted adult present. If I do contact her to make clear my reasons, and I think I will, then I'll tell her to never approach dd again, public or not.
I had been debating reporting it. As I said, if it was a man I would have, so no difference. I suppose the fact that I had allowed it to happen was blurring things in my mind. I am going to report to the school and let them take things from there, as a pp said they may have other info which together might add up to something.

I also just want to add that as she's 10 now, and they've been friends for 5 years, that is HALF her life she's been receiving this behaviour. This will have shaped her - and her friend.

If my kids & their mates got covered in mud / rain whilst playing football outside for eg, i might ask them if they wanted a shower & change of clothes.

I wouldn't BATH them & I'd make sure everyone had privacy.

It's odd. But not necessarily abuse. Maybe the mum has learning diffs?

It is odd. I'd just distance yourselves op.

Yes this. All of the “let the kids be friends but cut the mum out” doesn’t take into account that the daughter a) is indoctrinated to inappropriate behaviour which she will likely enact to op’s daughter and/or b) is being abused by her mother, and she will possibly enact these behaviours/have behavioural issues which will negatively impact OP’s daughter. Also, how do people think you can say to someone “I don’t think you’re behaviour is appropriate and you can’t be found my kid” but theyll let their kid hang out with yours still? So strange.

also, the girl also may need protecting from her mum so this should DEFINITELY be reported

Oh my god, alarm bells rang for me
Would you ever do this? I wouldn't dream of it .. wtaf!
I wouldn't let my daughter have a relationship like that with another adult no chance sorry

Also I slept out a lot as a child and I mean A LOT not once did a parent ever bath me

That would make me so uncomfortable too

I agree with all of this.

I don't believe women are beyond being paedophiles/abusers, by any means, but it does all smack of grooming given the way your DD is accepting it. Is there potentially a man on the scene anywhere in the background, OP, even if your DD has never met them?

I'd like to hope it's just an innocent mum stepping waaaay too far over the boundary unthinkingly, but it seems more sinister to me.

This is absolutely not acceptable and all contact should be stopped right now.
I was sexually abused at the age of 7 in the mid to late 1970s, by a 15 year old girl who suddenly befriended me and made out that she wanted to play/babysit/look after me because I was a cute kid, in her opinion.
I have totally blocked out what happened, but my mum must have suspected something "off" was going on in my bedroom one afternoon, as it suddenly went quiet. The "friend" was asked to leave and I was told I was never to speak to her or see her again. I wasn't given a reason, just that she was too old for me to be playing with. It was never discussed again.
I am slightly worried about what you meant when you stated this -
"because it feels a bit weird and pervy to be too close to them. I do feel that there is a fine line between infantilising and sexual perversion, even with your own child".
That really doesn't sound like a healthy thing to have in the back of your mind, either about your own children or their friends?
I would definitely be telling the mother why you are stopping contact.
I would never have been naked, changed clothes or bathed in front of or with my friends at the age of 10! I'd have been far too embarrassed.
You need to protect your DD.

Also contact nspcc for advice because that child will keep approaching your child

Better safe than sorry. The majority of times people are being affectionate and are emotional types with a big heart and would be hurt by the accusation but if it’s that one in a thousand time… It no longer takes a village to raise a child because we have YouTube/Blippi/etc