Is this nonce behaviour and what do I do

[Opinionsprettyplease]

• I've just collected dd(10) from a playdate at her friend's house; her friend lives with her mum. Dropped her off fully dressed, collected her four hours later and she was in PJ's, after having a bath with her friend. Apparently the mum put them in the bath after they'd got sweaty playing nintento.
• on sleepovers there, the mum has allowed DD come into her bed in the early mornings, when friend has woken early and gone into her mum's, leaving DD alone; DD has followed and they've all snoozed together for a few hours. (I'm not 100% sure about this, but planning to question dd about it today)
• she has a "special cuddle" with DD (and her own DD) whereby she pulls dd's head into her boobs and snuggles her. It's all fun and games to DD.
• she is constantly pushing food on DD, not just during playdates, but sending it home with her afterwards, sending it into school for her via her daughter. We're talking things like big chunks of chicken pie because "she loves my chicken pie"

I've known the mum for about 5 years, as long as the girls have been friends. She has a creepy co-dependant relationship with her own daughter, lavishing constant doting attention on her and treating/keeping her like a baby, and all the above behaviour is part of this. She seems to see her behaviour as mothering and completely natural and harmless.

I've always felt she crossed lines, but dd loves her and I thought I was just jealous of their relationship. I know I'll get a bashing for letting this go on, I've always struggled with boundaries for reasons that are a whole other story.

But the boobs. And giving a visiting child a bath on a four-hour playdate. I just can't imagine a scenario where I'd do that.
I'm thinking that if she was a man I'd be reporting her for predatory behaviour. Is this that different? She's still using DD for her own gratification, even if it's not sexual?

I had lessened contact in the last year or so, but am stopping it altogether now (not with the friend but with the mum, she can have playdate here or at friend's dad's house.) I'm talking to DD this evening. But:

• I know DD will kick off; I've half-heartedly objected to their sleepovers a few times and DD has been really upset and I've gone back to thinking that it's just my own insecurities and allowed things to continue. I can't think how to explain in a way that she'll understand and believe that this behaviour is not on, and not just me being jealous and a killjoy.
• I can't decide whether or not to contact the mum and explain why we're cutting ties. I feel it would be the most efficient thing to do, but an a bit wary of her, she's surely psychologically unsound.

Thank you for reading and I really do appreciate any advice.

YABU: it's overbearing but just have a firm word with her.

YANBU: cut contact, she's dangerous to dd

@Opinionsprettyplease former safeguarding officer here (school based) and I'd definitely have alarm bells ringing. You would not bath someone else's child. Even if there was a rare circumstance that this would need to happen, you would definitely obtain consent from the child's parent.

The rest of it all seems odd to me too. I'd definitely not allow my DD to go to their house anymore. I know this may upset DD but safeguarding DD takes priority.

I've heard/seen too much, I wouldn't take any chances personally. Also have an age appropriate conversation with DD about her personal space/boundaries/not keeping secrets etc just as a reminder

Not excusing myself for not acting sooner though

Eew! I’d definitely be stopping contact and I’d have no problem in telling Noncey Sinatra exactly why.

She suggested the bath, ran it for them (honestly I don't think her dd would be able to turn a tap) and popped in and out etc.

At best it's a massive overstepping of what most people would consider normal boundaries. Even if it's purely due to oddly infantilising her and by default your daughter, it's not OK. I think you should cut contact and I'd have no problem telling her why.

there are only very specific circumstances it would be acceptable to bath someone else’s child at age 10, and even then it would warrant a call to let parent know it needed to happen. ‘Ie your child vommed all over herself, I’m going to get her washed and you can come get her’ or ‘sorry I tried to call to let you know she fell in mud and was filthy so I ran her a bath’. At that age she should be bathing alone, and being a bit sweaty is not one of them.

the post last time about a baby having a bath so the their cousin is entirely different!

At 10? Nope. My DD would never be going there again.

My feeling is that it's not perhaps sexual but more like the friends mother is babying her daughter and treating her and her friends like much younger children.

Perhaps she doesn't want her daughter to grow up and lose that close physical affection?

It's still odd though and wrong to include someone else's child.

We are a very affectionate family but I didn't extend that closeness to my children's friends!

My feeling is that it's not perhaps sexual but more like the friends mother is babying her daughter and treating her and her friends like much younger children.

First of all, you're very naive if you think that it's not sexual just because the friend's mother is a woman. It's not OK for a woman to put two 10-year-olds in the bath together any more than it would be OK for a man to do it.

Secondly, treating older children as if they were babies/toddlers is, in itself, often sexual fetish. There was a woman in the US who used to make YouTube videos with her daughter where the daughter would pretend to be a baby/toddler in public, and she would tag the videos things like 'funny' and 'joke' but would also tag them in ways that made it fairly obvious that she was definitely pandering to a fetish audience.

I wouldn’t go as far as noncy but it’s completely inappropriate and you would do well to not allow your daughter to stay around there again.

My DD who is 11 has regular sleepovers here, and the girls often spend an hour in the bathroom messing around with makeup and stuff, and usually having a bath to clean up.

I don't think it's at all common for two 11-year-olds to happily get into a bath together or take baths/showers in front of one another. They might be happy to get changed for PE or try on clothes together, but communal baths for 11-year-olds is pretty weird in my opinion. Plenty of girls at the age of 11 are going through puberty.

Yes I do think this is exactly what it is. At the end of the day though isn't it the same difference to a child?

NC for this post

@Opinionsneededd - listen to your instincts for your DD's sake.

I was sexually abused by my friend's older sister from age 6 to 8. She used to give us (me and friend) a bath and she would touch me and insert her finger(s) into my vagina. The sister was 15 when this started.

I tried to tell my DM when it first happened, but my DM was so enraged by me coming home with wet hair she beat me.

I never told anyone about this until I was in my late 50's.

This was my first experience of sexual abuse and sadly, it was not the last.

I'm sorry if I'm projecting, but if it feels 'off' to you, it probably is for some reason or another.

Regardless of whether it is nonce behavior it is crossing boundaries that are there to keep your child safe and the adult should know this.

She has endangered your daughter by doing this, she might be "nice" but not everyone else is.

You have to enforce the boundaries. This woman is not helping these young girls.

No more sleepovers
Absolutely no baths at anyone else's house
No undressing at other's house's
No fucking food. She can get to f with that!
No boob hugs

Just NO!

I agree. I would stop my dd from doing this.

Having read extracts from Earl Spencer's book about the sexual abuse at his prep-boarding school by a 19 year old matron I would certainly consider this to be extremely concerning. How do you think your daughter will view this when she is older? I would contact the NSPCC for advice.

My dd is nine. She wouldn’t want me in the bathroom while she was in the bath, let alone someone else’s mum, or her friend.

I wouldn’t be happy with this, even if there’s nothing sexual in it. Would you be able to have a conversation with the mum, and let her know that dd is too old, no more undressing, no more sharing beds, no more special cuddles? Because you need her to understand appropriate boundaries at her age?

I think your dd will certainly feel uncomfortable about this when she looks back as an adult even if she doesn’t now.

Do I think it's necessarily sexually predatory behaviour? No. But it does raise alarms about someone who has poor boundaries and whose sense of self is wrapped up on an unhealthy relationship with her child.

Does she have a partner? Boyfriend? Guy she's dating who is ever around? That would actually be more my concern.

Speaking from personal experience in my own family, these sorts of women attract a certain type of man who is seeking someone who has poor boundaries and will overlook when boundaries are pushed with them and people around them. They want to please and keep everyone happy and make everyone like them (the gifting of food, for example). It means they can overlook inappropriate behaviour even when it smacks them in the face and won't speak up out of concern that they won't be liked and keeping everyone happy. The woman I know who is just like this ended up in a relationship with a man with a history of child sexual offences. Because she had no real sense of healthy boundaries, it didn't raise alarms with her when he started to push them.

Now I don't mean to say that's what's happening her. I don't think it is. But it's a good teachable moment to talk about boundaries. Don't want a bath with your friend or your friend's mum to see you naked? It's okay to say no. Don't want to cuddle? Just say no. Don't want to get into bed with someone else because it feels like a weird invasion of personal space? It's fine to stay in your own bed. I also think it's important for kids to see us being willing to stand up and say that's not okay and you shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable. If we feel too awkward doing something about it, how can we expect them to?

I'm so sorry this happened, and that your mother let you down. Women can be abusers too and yes it's often overlooked.
I keep a certain distance from dd's friends but just because of what's deemed acceptable, but because it feels a bit weird and pervy to be too close to them. I do feel that there is a fine line between infantilising and sexual perversion, even with your own child.

I think best case scenario she’s pretending that the girls are twins and gets a kick out of mothering them by testing them like dolls. Worst case scenario is she’s getting sexual kicks.

Either way creepy as hell and would be avoiding mum.

Sorry no this is really weird behaviour. You should not be letting them have baths together under your roof. If they’re messing about with make up they then take it in turns to wash their faces and hands. Why on earth would they need to bathe? Aren’t they dressed while they’re doing this? And if they ever really really did NEED a bath, they’d take it in turns while the other waited in the bedroom.

Trust your instincts and consider calling SS as well, better a child be safe than sorry.

The special cuddles and being in the same bed are major red flags to me. I don't know how any adult can think that's appropriate.

I completely understand why you are uncomfortable, and if you are, that's fine.

I did wonder if there are any cultural issues at play here though? I grew up in South Africa in the 80s. Pretty much none of what you describe would have been considered weird or unusual among family friends that were close. My BFF at that age lived with her (very elderly albeit lovely) grandmother because her mother had to work in another city and her and my mother were very close - I hated cuddling with my mum (I'm still not a cuddler!) but my friend would sometimes get into bed with my mum when she was scared or sad.

For me, the key would be if your DD is 100% comfortable or not. If she has even a tiny bit of discomfort, then this other mum is overstepping.

Re the bath, at that age, I would expect my DC would happily bath/shower at someone else's house. My youngest is 9 and is completely capable of doing this alone so I wouldn't expect she'd be very comfortable with a friend's mum being in the bathroom. But I did notice she was completely comfortable sharing a bath with her younger cousins and being around aunts/uncles naked as a result. I suspect that will change over the next year or so.