Is this nonce behaviour and what do I do

[Opinionsprettyplease]

• I've just collected dd(10) from a playdate at her friend's house; her friend lives with her mum. Dropped her off fully dressed, collected her four hours later and she was in PJ's, after having a bath with her friend. Apparently the mum put them in the bath after they'd got sweaty playing nintento.
• on sleepovers there, the mum has allowed DD come into her bed in the early mornings, when friend has woken early and gone into her mum's, leaving DD alone; DD has followed and they've all snoozed together for a few hours. (I'm not 100% sure about this, but planning to question dd about it today)
• she has a "special cuddle" with DD (and her own DD) whereby she pulls dd's head into her boobs and snuggles her. It's all fun and games to DD.
• she is constantly pushing food on DD, not just during playdates, but sending it home with her afterwards, sending it into school for her via her daughter. We're talking things like big chunks of chicken pie because "she loves my chicken pie"

I've known the mum for about 5 years, as long as the girls have been friends. She has a creepy co-dependant relationship with her own daughter, lavishing constant doting attention on her and treating/keeping her like a baby, and all the above behaviour is part of this. She seems to see her behaviour as mothering and completely natural and harmless.

I've always felt she crossed lines, but dd loves her and I thought I was just jealous of their relationship. I know I'll get a bashing for letting this go on, I've always struggled with boundaries for reasons that are a whole other story.

But the boobs. And giving a visiting child a bath on a four-hour playdate. I just can't imagine a scenario where I'd do that.
I'm thinking that if she was a man I'd be reporting her for predatory behaviour. Is this that different? She's still using DD for her own gratification, even if it's not sexual?

I had lessened contact in the last year or so, but am stopping it altogether now (not with the friend but with the mum, she can have playdate here or at friend's dad's house.) I'm talking to DD this evening. But:

• I know DD will kick off; I've half-heartedly objected to their sleepovers a few times and DD has been really upset and I've gone back to thinking that it's just my own insecurities and allowed things to continue. I can't think how to explain in a way that she'll understand and believe that this behaviour is not on, and not just me being jealous and a killjoy.
• I can't decide whether or not to contact the mum and explain why we're cutting ties. I feel it would be the most efficient thing to do, but an a bit wary of her, she's surely psychologically unsound.

Thank you for reading and I really do appreciate any advice.

YABU: it's overbearing but just have a firm word with her.

YANBU: cut contact, she's dangerous to dd

Here's the thing about safeguarding: It doesn't matter what this particular adult's motives are.

What is this teaching your child? It is eroding her ability to understand appropriate boundaries.

Put an end to this.

You don't have to work out this woman's motives for doing what she's doing. The removal of clothes whilst in her care is enough cause for concern.

Women do abuse, and I think it can sometimes be harder to pinpoint. I spent years trying to work out motives for my abuser (it was hidden amongst "punishments")

If you believe this women is sexually abusing children then your responsibility is to report her to social services so they can investigate, and obviously to keep your own child away. I find it quite concerning that someone is comfortable accusing a woman of being a 'nonce' yet dithering about, posting salacious details on MN rather than taking the obvious and responsible action.

This lady is predatory or odd. I suspect the latter tbh but have no way of knowing so I would be cautious. Either way, you need to distance your DD, stop the sleepovers.

Is your daughter confident enough to resist the baths and the hugs if she still goes there to play with no sleeping over? It’s a big ask at ten, of course.

If the friendship is important to your DD you can still welcome her friend to your house/take them out. And encourage friendship during school hours.

I dont think the woman is a nonce... thats a big leap. But certainly you are allowed to have boundaries and dislike her overly familiar behaviour with your daughter. So id go for having a firm word with her about how you would like her to stop behaving like this with dd... and if she doesnt stop then cut contact. It seems she's just crossed a line where she is treating her daughters friend exactly as she would her own daughter.
I would never do this with my kids friends. Ill happily give my own children a bath, let them come into my bed etc... but id not be doing it with other kids. The woman lacks boundaries. It doesnt make you a nonce necessarily but it is inappropriate to do with another person's child when you dont have permission.

It certainly rings alarm bells around the bath and bed cuddles. She's crossing boundaries that aren't really appropriate and I wouldn't be comfortable sending my child there. Whether it's sexual or not I'd go with my gut feeling

OP this behaviour has red flags all over it potentially even grooming type behaviour. There is no way I would ever let my child around this woman again and to be honest I would be having a quiet word with the school as none of this is normal and even if it's not sexual abuse it is still abusive to try and withhold a child from age and stage approiate development which is what she is doing.

Why would you pussyfoot around this?! Stop your daughter going round there, tell her why in an age appropriate way. If the weirdo asks, tell her exactly why too! My god, I’d lose my shit at this woman. Stand up for your child!

If it was a man would you be asking what to do??? No you wouldn’t. Same goes for a woman.

I'm not accusing her of being a nonce, nor am I comfortable about it. I'm questioning whether this is nonce-like behaviour. My own boundaries around the area aren't to be trusted so I'm questioning.
Most posters seem to agree that it's not necessarily predatory in its own right, but that it crosses boundaries mostly in place to protect children from more dangerous people. And so I'm going to keep her away from her.

Someone else has asked on this thread and I believe you haven't answered yet - is she British or another culture?

It's very common in many cultures around the world to touch/cuddle other people's children.

Obviously at the end of the day it doesn't matter - if it makes you or your daughter uncomfortable, just put a stop to it.

Are you going to report her to anyone ?

I wish my mother had stepped in when I was being abused as a child. She swept it under the carpet for a while and it gave me major issues in trust etc for decades after. Not just the abuse itself but my mothers reaction to it. Your dd is 10 she can't advocate for herself or understand boundaries and she needs you to do that for her. Yes she may be upset but again she's a child and wouldn't be seeing the wrong in what this woman is doing. Abusers groom over time and make these things seem normal. Especially a woman. If this was the friends dad you would have stopped it at the first issue. Don't worry about acting the mean mum. Your daughter will thank you for it in the long run x

No, no other cultures at play.
Only thing I'd say is that she's not at all involved with other parents or the general community, and so mightn't be as "well up" with the norms.

I'm not sure.

You don't need to trust your own boundaries. Nor do you need the opinions of a bunch of lay people on MN. There are people who's job it is to decide if a child is being abused. All the rest of us need to do is pick up the phone when we have reason to believe there may be an issue. If you end up reporting something that turns out to be innocent, well that's far preferable to ignoring abuse. No one on here can possibly tell you if that child is being abused, so take it to those who can find out.

I have lots of nieces and nephews and 3 children myself. Saying this for context that I mind a lot of children and I would never bath another person's child unless it's one of the babies/toddlers and the parents would be ok with it, this would be discussed in advance. As it stands I've happily never had too even after kids have been mucked up to their oxters. The most I've ever done is help change clothes, send dirty stuff and mucky child home to their parents. Kids can be bathed at home. I'd rather my child come home to bathe.

We don't do sleepovers. Although I have had my nieces/nephews stay over. They've never came in to bed with me in the morning and if they did we would all just get up for the day. Of course you can comfort kids in your care, give cuddles and tuck them in etc and I dont necessarily think this woman has nefarious intentions. But everything she is doing just doesn't need to happen. It's superfluous to the sleepover/playdate and your kids would have as much fun together without all these things. The food thing I'd be less worried about as I love to make food for people but in the wider context its all a bit odd and I wouldn't be happy if this was my child.

Stop the sleepovers. Kids don't need sleepovers to have friendships.
Speak to your child
Make sure she knows her body safety rules
We can be kind to everyone but we don't have to trust everyone, we can be nice but we don't have to be sweet.

Maybe the playdates and friendship can be supported by setting boundaries with the mum. It could just be a matter of communicating and , she really may just be being loving but your the one with the instincts here. Firm up your DDs boundaries and go with your gut.

You need to role model acceptable behaviour and be clear on boundaries. You clearly aren't.

By this age, children should know that being naked with anyone other than close trusted family is a big fat NO.

No No No. Not for fun and not for any other reason.

I also think letting a child stay the night with a family who you clearly don't know that well is also massively unwise for all the reasons others have pointed out.

Stop the visits and stop being naive to the possibles. Believe you gut and be more assertive with your child on what is right and what is not and explain to her that she should also tell you anything that she is worried about.

No thank you: This woman has some issues and it sounds unhealthy. I would not allow my daughters to go there.

I would be making your DD too busy going forward.

I think maybe one of the things wouldn't be a major concern but all together...no.

I think most parents are aware of not doing red flag stuff like bathing ten year olds, I also rarely touched other people children, it's just not the done thing is it.

Thinking back my DD had a few spa bathroom sessions with her friend, where they used the bubble bath and did treatments, but I'm sure they wore underwear, and I trusted the mum totally. Mum didn't plan it, the girls just wanted to go to the spa, like we did, I'm pretty sure they used an entire bottle of jo Malone Bath oil too 😳

The boobs thing seems a bit off. She must have done it with her child as a comfort thing since a young age. As you say she babies her, so your DD must have seen and then joined in.
The bathing thing, I know I used to choose to go in the bath sometimes during playdates with my mate at 10 just to water play, sometimes nude, sometimes swimmers. I was comfortable being nude. But the parents didn't 'bathe us'. We just went in there on our own.
I can't say it's noncey or not, but it's certainly a weird parenting style. Infantising (soz,sp?) them both. It's more normal for a 3 yo. But again only with parents consent.

The only child I would bath other than my own is my very young niece. My eight year old niece would shower herself at my house if she needed to. There’s no universe in which I would put her in a bath with my dd as I used to when they were toddlers (2 and 3).

And even with my nieces, I wouldn’t if I wasn’t 100% certain they and their parents all felt comfortable with it.

My nieces would get in my bed for a cuddle in the morning. I wouldn’t do that with my DD’s friend. No way, if they came in my room I would get out of bed.

I once had to help DD’s best friend out of a wetsuit when they went sailing. I draped a towel around her and double checked that she wanted and needed my help.

I think most people are extra cautious with boundaries when it comes to other people’s children.

I would never cuddle someone else's child, let alone into my breasts. That and being in the same bed, if it was a man we would all instantly say, yes, report this and keep your child away. I just don't know anyone who would do this, innocently.

Absolutely this. It would be completely off limits here. There is way too much scope for something to go wrong/be misconstrued

I would not allow my child to visit that house again, ever.