Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
  
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
  
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
  
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
  
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
  
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
  
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait
  

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

[DrJump]

Are you the real Jordan Peterson? Are you looking to write an article about this? Are you expecting women to do the research for you? Then claim the work as your own?

[JordanPeterson]

No I'm sure the real JP has better things to do with his time than browse Mumsnet

Though it would be funny if he was

I'm not doing research for anything

I did suspect I'd receive a level of suspicion towards this post

Another toxic trait is showing hostility when anyone dares to question or critique the behaviour of other women

Again not ALL WOMEN it's just a tendency...

[DrJump]

A toxic trait would be trying to set other people up so they can be the fall guy for your staggering intelligence

[JordanPeterson]

@DrJump

A toxic trait would be trying to set other people up so they can be the fall guy for your staggering intelligence

If you don't think it's real then feel free to disagree

But is the dripping sarcasm really necessary when I've asked a serious question?

Seems kind of toxic to be mean to someone for simply wanting to discuss this

[DrJump]

I don't agree with your first premise and you second statement doesn't relate to the first premise.

[HollyKnight]

Eh? None of that is to do with femininity. What you're describing is different personalities.

And no, men and women are not equal. But that's not what "equality" is. Equality is saying both sexes should have the same opportunities in life by taking into account their differences.

[DanielGault]

Ah come on, your username. There are toxic people of both sexes, this is no surprise to anyone with even half a functional brain. That said, historically, men are more toxic and abusive. But I suspect you know that.

[JordanPeterson]

I'm more talking about present day examples

If there are toxic people of both sexes & toxicity relates purely to personality, then why is it we only seem to hear of toxic masculinity?

Wouldn't we just refer to toxic "people" in general?

Things like "cliques" & the bullying / ostracision that comes with them are known to be specific behaviour exhibited particularly by women not common with men, so how would we explain this type of phenomenon amongst women?

If both both sexes should have the same opportunities in life by taking into account their differences, then wouldn't that mean we were different but still "equal" ?

[DanielGault]

@JordanPeterson

I'm more talking about present day examples

If there are toxic people of both sexes & toxicity relates purely to personality, then why is it we only seem to hear of toxic masculinity?

Wouldn't we just refer to toxic "people" in general?

Things like "cliques" & the bullying / ostracision that comes with them are known to be specific behaviour exhibited particularly by women not common with men, so how would we explain this type of phenomenon amongst women?

If both both sexes should have the same opportunities in life by taking into account their differences, then wouldn't that mean we were different but still "equal" ?

Edited

Your faux naivety is unconvincing. Try watching or reading the news. See which sex is more toxic.

[JordanPeterson]

Using ad hominem attacks isn't helpful

Perhaps it is naive to assume that toxic femininity cannot exist?

Of course I watch the news, what news sources in particular are you referring to?

Would watching conservative news sources be considered acceptable, or are you referring to liberal news sources?

Back in my day we watched a range of news sources / social & political commentary from different channels with various perspectives & formed our own perspective

But it seems in recent times there is a tendency for people to follow the news sources they agree with & label others as "wrong"

[Swoopy]

I think of toxic masculinity as something men are subjected to as much as something they exhibit (eg “real man don’t cry”). By the same token, I’d suggest diet culture a an example of toxic femininity- social pressure which is primarily aimed at women and which many women internalise.

[stayathomer]

Everyone’s got different personalities, everyone messes up or says things they don’t always do. It’s one of the downfalls of modern society that we feel the need to throw a label on everything. What jumped out at me is you saying about cliques. In our school because it’s small and rural there’s a few relatives and also childhood friends. People could easily call them cliques but inn real life it’s friends or relatives meeting at the school gates and talking about situations or people they are all close to. I see on mn someone saying about groups of mothers and everyone jumps in saying they’re just awful people when they don’t know them!

[Mishmaj]

Yes it’s definitely worth becoming more aware of the negative traits more likely to be shown by women. Exclusion by reputational damage etc is very toxic. There is already quite a bit of literature about queen bee types and how they manipulate others. It’s particularly worth looking into if you have a daughter, both to help her identify and avoid toxic friend and peer dynamics and to help them to avoid becoming that girl/woman (shudder!)

[HollyKnight]

I love that you think men don't form cliques or bully people.

I'm guessing you don't know any men who went to all boys' school, or play in sports teams, or joined the army, or the police, or are in gangs etc.

[JordanPeterson]

@Swoopy

I think of toxic masculinity as something men are subjected to as much as something they exhibit (eg “real man don’t cry”). By the same token, I’d suggest diet culture a an example of toxic femininity- social pressure which is primarily aimed at women and which many women internalise.

Thanks for this answer, that's a good point that men can be seen as victims of toxic masculinity, rather than just perpetrators of it

This reminds me of the term "real women have curves!" which was heavily promoted by women, for other women & can cause upset to women who aren't "curvy" enough

Hence why the dangerous procedure known as the Brazilian butt lift now exists & has become normalised now

Would agree that diet culture is a prime example of toxic femininity & that these body modification trends are not being pushed by men (Eg: Duck lips filler trend)

Many women who partake in this will perceive invasive injectables as "self care" and "empowerment" as this is the current social messaging pushed by other women

[OhamIreally]

It's handy for your argument that anyone disagreeing with you is presenting an example of toxic femininity.

I find your writing style interesting.

[JordanPeterson]

@HollyKnight

I love that you think men don't form cliques or bully people.

I'm guessing you don't know any men who went to all boys' school, or play in sports teams, or joined the army, or the police, or are in gangs etc.

I never said men do not partake in bullying

But in general men's behaviour will have a tendency to escalate to physical assault

Whereas women are more inclined escalate to things like reputation destruction & gossiping

So agree with you that say, in a boys school or army type setting that men can bully other men, they tend not to resort to things like gossip & isolating other men socially

But if men partake in bulling & so do women, that would suggest that this would be an example of both toxic masculinity and femininity

So they don't cancel each other out, they just complement each other, if that makes sense

[DanielGault]

@JordanPeterson

Using ad hominem attacks isn't helpful

Perhaps it is naive to assume that toxic femininity cannot exist?

Of course I watch the news, what news sources in particular are you referring to?

Would watching conservative news sources be considered acceptable, or are you referring to liberal news sources?

Back in my day we watched a range of news sources / social & political commentary from different channels with various perspectives & formed our own perspective

But it seems in recent times there is a tendency for people to follow the news sources they agree with & label others as "wrong"

Edited

You're not convincing anyone. Watch whatever news sources you like, but I think it's fair to say that the vast, vast majority of murder and violence is carried out by men. I'm not hugely familiar with the concept of toxic femininity, but I am pretty sure that toxic masculinity should be much further up the ladder in terms of sorting out, as it's so much more prevalent. And anyone who pretends not to be aware of this is no better than a troll tbh

[JordanPeterson]

@OhamIreally

It's handy for your argument that anyone disagreeing with you is presenting an example of toxic femininity.

I find your writing style interesting.

But if someone is being sarcastic, resorting to ad hominem attacks & replies in a hostile manner

Then essentially that is toxic, is it not?

Is it handy, or is it pointing out an uncomfortable fact?

I just write this way now because in the past have been told to stop with the "wall of text" style stream of consciousness

So now try to use a new paragraph for every sentence to make it easier to read

[DanielGault]

@JordanPeterson

But if someone is being sarcastic, resorting to ad hominem attacks & replies in a hostile manner

Then essentially that is toxic, is it not?

Is it handy, or is it pointing out an uncomfortable fact?

I just write this way now because in the past have been told to stop with the "wall of text" style stream of consciousness

So now try to use a new paragraph for every sentence to make it easier to read

Nobody is being toxic here? You asked for opinions, you are receiving opinions.

[HollyKnight]

@JordanPeterson

I never said men do not partake in bullying

But in general men's behaviour will have a tendency to escalate to physical assault

Whereas women are more inclined escalate to things like reputation destruction & gossiping

So agree with you that say, in a boys school or army type setting that men can bully other men, they tend not to resort to things like gossip & isolating other men socially

But if men partake in bulling & so do women, that would suggest that this would be an example of both toxic masculinity and femininity

So they don't cancel each other out, they just complement each other, if that makes sense

You said it yourself - men escalate to physical assault. That's because aggression is a masculine trait. But turning that aggression into a physical action is what is toxic. Women who get physical are not acting out a feminine trait.

[JordanPeterson]

@DanielGault

You're not convincing anyone. Watch whatever news sources you like, but I think it's fair to say that the vast, vast majority of murder and violence is carried out by men. I'm not hugely familiar with the concept of toxic femininity, but I am pretty sure that toxic masculinity should be much further up the ladder in terms of sorting out, as it's so much more prevalent. And anyone who pretends not to be aware of this is no better than a troll tbh

Yes men do commit more murder & violence

Though there can be tendencies towards the types of murders committed

Eg: women more likely to kill via poisoning than men

Men & women both commit infanticide at generally the same rate

Women tend not to murder men due to I would guess is the difficulty in killing a man due to the power imbalance, but when it comes to infanticide & killing a weaker child they do it roughly the same rate which is interesting

So could it be that when women have the opportunity to murder that they do?

If you're familiar with the concept of toxic masculinity then surely it isn't a huge mental leap to understand what the concept of toxic femininity might be as an abstract idea?

My post wasn't about which is the more pressing issue to solve

Just because one issue may be seen as more pressing to solve doesn't mean the other cannot & should not be discussed though

Wouldn't that be like saying we should not say, talk about Ukraine war because the Palestinian war is more pressing? (I am not saying that's what I believe, just using that as a hypothetical example)

[JawsStillScaresMe]

Sarcasm and hostility, as you describe posters being, are not toxic femininity. It sounds to me like your definition of toxic femininity is any woman not agreeing with you and not aligning to #bekind.

[DanielGault]

@JordanPeterson

Yes men do commit more murder & violence

Though there can be tendencies towards the types of murders committed

Eg: women more likely to kill via poisoning than men

Men & women both commit infanticide at generally the same rate

Women tend not to murder men due to I would guess is the difficulty in killing a man due to the power imbalance, but when it comes to infanticide & killing a weaker child they do it roughly the same rate which is interesting

So could it be that when women have the opportunity to murder that they do?

If you're familiar with the concept of toxic masculinity then surely it isn't a huge mental leap to understand what the concept of toxic femininity might be as an abstract idea?

My post wasn't about which is the more pressing issue to solve

Just because one issue may be seen as more pressing to solve doesn't mean the other cannot & should not be discussed though

Wouldn't that be like saying we should not say, talk about Ukraine war because the Palestinian war is more pressing? (I am not saying that's what I believe, just using that as a hypothetical example)

Palestine has nothing to do with your original question. To be perfectly honest, I think that reply was complete and utter BS. I assume you will disagree with me, as is your right, equally I absolutely disagree with you

[JawsStillScaresMe]

Men & women both commit infanticide at generally the same rate

The reasons are usually vastly different though and it’s important to distinguish between them.