To think that Labour have just shot themselves in the foot?

[Redrosetat]

https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1768647056111861760?s=19&t=wqgtbWPG_X1xZDMhuF871A

‘Just now Labour MPs prevented debate on a new law to protect children and single sex spaces.

Instead they used parliamentary time to discuss ferret name choices.

@Keir_Starmer is terrified of debate on safeguarding & his MPs actively work to ignore the concerns of constituents’

You're at 77%, OP. Landslide.

No, I don't mean to be condescending. I'm honestly interested in what practical, real world solutions people who aren't politicians may have come up with. The problem I have with the FWR boards is that there is so much anger there that as a parent of two trans young people, it makes me feel that they are viewed as mentally ill, deviant, in need of 'treatment' and that is not something I want to be around.

x

About FWR boards

Other parents have found support there. The non affirming ones. I have no idea that ‘non affirmation’ could be an approach to young people that decide they are trans.

The anger or frustration in FWR is rarely addressed to individuals but about how women’s rights are affected, how young children are indoctrinated and the malpractice around the affirmation medical path (thanks all gods and goddesses that the NHS has pulled away from puberty blockers prescription).

Adults under that trans umbrella have very varied perspectives on the issues. I tend to trust and respect those who know sex doesn’t change and don’t impose their believes on others. The ones you don’t hear often. Then, you have those whose ‘her penis’ are mentioned in court and are counted as women’s crimes.

Wow, show your colours @Redrosetat why don't you?

We were more equal under labour than under any tory government. You think this shower support women abd children? They don't. Do you think labour don't want to talk about it cos they'll give too much away? It's as possible as is your reason forbthem not talking about it....

Get rid of this shower ASAP and get a government in that cares about the 99%

And what about the Tories?

Everything that’s happened to children and women’s spaces has happened under THEIR GOVERNMENT.

@Trino that's a really nuanced perspective and very helpful. I fully agree with you on puberty blockers - and so would my two trans young adults. There's no body of research into their safety, and research is not possible because you wouldn't get ethics.

What I don't agree with is the idea that there is no difference between sex and gender. I've studied enough anthropology in my life to know that just isn't so. Sex = you're XX or XY (or any of the other intersex chromosomal configurations). Gender is how you are socialised and how you express yourself once you are an adult and it encompasses a huge range of humanity.

Ultimately the problem is what we do about predatory men - whether or not they are pretending to be women or not. They absolutely should not be in female prisons. I suppose I'm also GC-lite.

Re. Labour's position on single sex spaces.

It's meaningless waffle.

The Labour Party's current position is that they intend to make the process obtaining a GRC (being a legal woman) easier for men.

This means that single sex spaces for women will include more males, especially because we can't ask which male has a GRC or not because the law makes it that way.

This means that it is de -facto self ID, with no real regard to the harms done to women by the fact that 'legal women' can now be anywhere they want to be, with extremely limited exceptions.

So the Labour Party has seen the harms done and rather than drawing back they want to make the process easier.

This is in - spite of the fact that we have seen the harms done by having men who identify as women in single sex spaces such as women's prisons, women's rape crisis centres, sport, single sex women's NHS wards, etc. etc.

we know!

Is that a licence to the Labour party to sell women and children down the river in the name of trans/ men's right's activism? ???

How can you be pro sex-based rights when you think that men should be allowed in to women's loos? Men are NOT women under ANY circumstances.

Oh and the lite and ultra crap is really pathetic.

The Labour Party's current position is that they intend to make the process obtaining a GRC (being a legal woman) easier for men.

And women. And remind me who was in power when this happened - and who was Equalities minister at the time. Ms Truss said:

I am proud that we have made the process of getting a certificate fairer, simpler and much more affordable."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56972195

Predatory men are the problem
It's very patriarchal to think trans people are the problem. It's a subset of men who will exploit more vulnerable populations for their own ends. I want vulnerable people to be protected from predatory men. Trans is neither here nor there really

So in the light of how awful the Tories are to women, why oh why are Labour going to make the process easier?

And why are the Tories now backtracking, you might say culture wars, and you could be right.

Except those wars could so easily be over if Labour wanted them to be, they could be clear that only women are women in respect of the Equality Act single sex spaces.

So why don't they? Why are Labour in the light of the above making it easier for men to be women?

All trans women are men.

Some trans women are predatory men.

Trans people are not the problem.

Predatory men are the problem. The problem society has is that we can't tell which men (trans or not) are the predators.

So we exclude all men (even trans women) from single sex spaces for safeguarding reasons.

Not because they are trans, but because they are men.

This.

Single sex spaces are important to me for privacy, decency, safety and fairness in sports

Being pro sex based rights means using sex as the criteria

But it is though because TW are as likely to be predatory as other males so if you let TW into women's spaces, you will let in as many predators as if you just randomly selected a different group of males in.

Why are Labour in the light of the above making it easier for men to be women?

Why did the Tories make it easier for men to be women and women to be men? Why is a proposed change by an opposition party considered worse than an accomplished change by a government in power? There would be a lot more respect for the defence of these views if they weren’t so nakedly partisan.

You are missing the point.

It is not worse. This issue transcends party politics.

So why do the t Labour want to continue the harms? If Labour wants to win my vote my question is entirely valid.

I’m not missing the point at all. Your continual refusal to condemn this government for anything it does and condemnation of Labour for what it might do is completely illogical and puts the lie to any assertion of transcending party politics. It’s positively Orwellian.

How have I not condemned this government?

I don't think you have read a single one of my posts, have you?

All through this thread I have blamed the Tories for the current position.

I actually think people have been pretty clear what they want to start trusting labour:

1. abject apology to Roaie Duffield
2. Starmer admitting he was a dick when he said women can have penises
3. New leader who's not proven themselves to be a massive misogynist.

I'd like to vote for them but they are not seeing like a party for women.

@BIossomtoes

My posts condemning the government on this thread -

• Are you ignoring the fact that we know that the conservatives aren't doing enough post @17.14

• I mean given that the Tories have done such a bad job on this and everything else you would think this would be a gift horse to [email protected]

• All of the bad things have happened under Tory watch, in terms of male rapists in womens prisons, males competing in women's sport, a woman being raped by a trans woman on an NHS women's single sex ward then told it could not have happened because there was no man there etc etc. Children being given harmful experimental puberty blockers and on pathways to body modification. All of this under the Tories. @17.23

• This has been dealt with ad infinitum.Yes the harms have happened under the Tory Party.Real demonstrable harms. @17.27

• So in the light of how awful the Tories are to women, why oh why are Labour going to make the process easier? @22.40

So in what way am I refusing to condemn the tories @BIossomtoes ?

Yep. The two don’t go together