to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

I think the problem is that it's such a black and white picture. There can't be a compromise as each view is either correct or not.
It's like belief in God in the past, to people who strongly believed in it anyone who didn't was viewed as awful and immoral, to people who didn't believe in it anyone who did was illogical and believing in something that's (in their view) plainly not there.

I think in extremes of opinion like this it can also seem to people that their opinion (either way) is so "right" that the other side must truly realise they are wrong, and are therefore saying their opinion just to be confrontational rather than genuinely being able to believe it.

Yes, no man would ever pretend to be a woman to be predatory.

Oh look, another example of that thing that never happens

https://news.sky.com/story/andrew-miller-jailed-for-20-years-for-abducting-and-sexually-assaulting-girl-in-scottish-borders-12983829

Miller being dressed as a woman was an aggravating factor as he doubted that the girl would have gotten into the car if Miller had presented as a man

Do TRAs and their allies just pretend this stuff doesn’t happen or are the people harmed just collateral damage?

You are right that belief in gender identity is a philosophical belief.

Can you tell us then what laws that are based on material reality should be changed to be based on one group’s philosophical belief? Why should one group’s philosophical belief be prioritised when there are times when sex matters?

Why should any female person accept a male with a philosophical belief into a space that is needed to be single sex? Why should any female athlete accept an unfair situation and perhaps a physically dangerous one because a male athlete has a particular philosophical belief?

Did you read the link? If so, can you explain why you know better than this research?

The way to keep women safer is to keep ALL men out of womens spaces, and seeing as the ones pushing hardest for access to them are the ones who claim to be trans, of course they will get the most push back.

You’re missing my point. You can be concerned about unisex places and potential attacks whilst simultaneously understanding that they’re few and far between compared to the daily murders and rapes and kidnappings that are happening across the world that are committed by biological men in plain view.

I’m a huge advocate for women’s safety and I work in the sector and am very passionate and clued up about the statstics so please don’t presume I’m not. My point is that media often sensationalises the Isla Brysons of the world over the fact that we allowed misogynists, rapists and murderers in our police forces and despite campaigning, we lose 3-5 women a day to the hands of their male partners.

Of course there's no need for the whataboutery re male violence against women and girls. I've never met a feminist who didn't have plenty of focus on them... women are capable about worrying about more than one thing at once!
There may be a bit less discussion in evidence because there's not much controversy and there are no big charities trying to push the idea it's a good thing.

No one is denying anyone’s right to exist

but you are denying their right to exist.

This is just childish nonsense designed to guilt trip and stifle discussion

Last I checked- name calling is hardly a mature way of promoting constructive debate.

However what they cannot do is by force me to go along with their belief that they are the opposite sex

nobody cares what you believe about who someone else is - you are free to be as ignorant, narrow minded and hateful as you please - as long as you keep your thoughts to yourself. it’s not hard, it’s a basic principle of living amongst other humans. for example, I might think my neighbour is stupid and ugly, nobody can force me to believe otherwise, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for me to put my feelings about this out there.

compel my speech.

Again it’s a fairly basic principle of decent society that we address people how they wish to be addressed; for example, if someone tells us their name, we might not like it, but we use it. It’s not hard. Furthermore, there are legal restrictions on speech; hate speech, for example, is completely unacceptable, so is saying discriminatory things in the workplace. For example, there are certain racialised words that it is entirely unacceptable to use to address or describe another person- I can believe that that is the correct terminology to describe them all I want, but if I insist on doing it , I may well be fired from my job or even arrested for harassment. This is absolutely appropriate.

or enter spaces intended for the sole use of the opposite sex, which are for the privacy, dignity and safety of members of that sex

the problem with this is that trans people need privacy, dignity and safety too, and restricting their access certain services or spaces is a form of discrimination and a restriction in their ability to live their life with privacy, dignity and safety.

It hurts women. An awful lot.

You said 3 - 5 women a day are killed by their male partners, that’s not true in the uk, the average I believe is 2 a week. You said you’re up on stats, please do let us know where you got this one.

If a man wants to present himself as female, I’ll use the name they ask me to use and the pronouns they as me to use, because that is not a big deal to me. Anyone should be able to dress how they want and use a name they want, and I’m not fussed on extending that to pronouns either.

If a man wants to present himself as female, and compete in women’s-only sports, be incarcerated in a women’s-only prison, take a space in a women’s-only development opportunity, or do anything that takes away from a biological woman or puts a biological woman or any child at risk, I’m not going to respect that.

the problem with this is that trans people need privacy, dignity and safety too, and restricting their access certain services or spaces is a form of discrimination and a restriction in their ability to live their life with privacy, dignity and safety.

Allowing access of a group into a space specifically needed by others is a form of privilege though. If trans people can't be accommodated adequately within the services and spaces of their own sex then they need to campaign for alternatives.

Please post your studies and evidence. Some of us do keep asking to see this evidence because some posters keep mentioning they have seen it or even have written about it.

We read the studies. So many people like to read the papers so they can get a deeper understanding of why others think as they do. Of course, the papers will be discussed because that is how we learn. We learn from those discussions. However, if the evidence cannot stand up to scrutiny it has to be acknowledged that it is poor quality evidence and it may not be saying what others believe it is.

So. Please do post your evidence so people can see what you are talking about.

Yes I did read the link. It’s talking about the reported sexual assaults that happen in changing rooms. It doesn’t say anything about the fact that only 1 in 100 sexual assaults are reported and make it to prosecution stage and that most of these are committed by males known to the female in places like the home, or university halls. It’s an article that is focussing solely on mixed use spaces, so of course is going to be talking about attacks in mixed use changing rooms and toilets, I don’t understand your point? If you compared the amount of attacks in unisex changing rooms to the attacks that happen in the home, or in nightclubs, or in university halls etc you’d realise it’s shockingly low.

Again, the vast majority of trans women are absolutely not dressing up as women solely to gain access to women to attack them. They won’t bother dressing up, they’ll just do it and 99 out of 100 of the cases wont ever be reported.

I work in the women’s safety sector and the data and cases I see truly shock me, so please don’t presume you know more than me because you searched out and read an article that backs up your beliefs.

the problem with this is that trans people need privacy, dignity and safety too, and restricting their access certain services or spaces is a form of discrimination and a restriction in their ability to live their life with privacy, dignity and safety.

@Tandora, can you explain why trans women's privacy, dignity and safety relies on denying those same things to women? There's a group of people who are not threatened by male bodies in their vulnerable spaces. Surely it would be better for trans women to campaign to be accepted within that group?

(that group is: men)

There are more than two biological sexes- there is verifiable scientific evidence for that fact

Oh hurrah, Crispsandcola is going to post the evidence any moment now!?

This is how I feel. Especially this bit Anyone should be able to dress how they want and use a name they want

I think if there were less "rules" around what people can do based on their biological sex (where there are no physical barriers as there are in sport) the world would be a better place.

Right, so you don’t know that it’s rubbish at all, you’re just guessing, you have no evidence that actually backs your opinion that mixed sex spaces DONT put women at a higher risk than single sex?

Can you tell me how letting men who ID as trans into womens single sex spaces, doesn’t put women at an increased risk? Or are you saying the increased risk doesn’t matter because women get attacked anyway?

Id also suggest you take your own advice about making presumptions about others knowledge.

No Keating. MN still do it. But they delay doing it.

It is really quite eye opening to see all the complaints because some adults cannot scroll past a thread they don’t want to interact with.

The average is 2 a week in England. Across the whole of the UK including England, Wales, NI and Scotland it is estimated at 3-5 women per day murdered or seriously injured. I literally work daily with these reports that are fed to us directly from local police forces, charities and community action groups.

@Crispsandcola

It's understandable you want to support a relative who is trans-identifying but no, there's no third gamete, no third sex, no third reproductive role.

Yes there are various DSDs (Disorders/Differences of Sex Development) but that doesn't mean there are more than two sexes. Even DSDs are sex-specific; for example Turner Syndrome only affects females and Klinefelter is only seen in males.

We can be born with underdeveloped or absent limbs. Even more rarely some of us are born with too many. But humans are still a bipedal species.

not believing someone is the opposite sex is not denying their right to exist.

if people are going to respond with childish nonsense then I will call it out. That is not name calling.

it is not a matter of basic courtesy to expect me to deny the evidence of my own ears and eyes and use wrong sex pronouns. That is expecting me to lie and is harmful to me.

trans people may need their own spaces but that’s a them problem to solve. Not for women to welcome male bodied people in.

A good summary from Hotairblues.

YANBU and thank you OP. Women have lost their jobs (Dr Kathleen Stock), their livelihoods (Maya Forstater) and their sense of safety (JK Rowling) because they have been willing to publicly state biological facts. None of those women has ever actually been found to have threatened or caused harm to a transgender person. There are dozens more examples of women who have publicly engaged in this topic, at a very high cost to themselves.

I don’t mind if the subject matter of this thread has been covered before - surely that is half the point of Mumsnet? The more women who wake up to this issue the better.
Let the light shine brightly on every corner where harm can hide.