Page 4 | AIBU to be shocked by the Irish referendum?

Yetmorebeanstocount · 2024-03-09T16:17:32+00:00

I'm not from the Irish Republic. I just read what the ballot was about. I am shocked at what their constitution contained: ^Article 41.2.1° “In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.”^ ^Article 41.2.2° “The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.”^ I'm even more shocked that early results suggest the Irish have voted to KEEP this dire crap in their constitution. Am I missing something?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 09/03/2024 18:23

EarringsandLipstick · 09/03/2024 18:21

There was widespread mis information from the govt and media that the actual sentence 'a womans place is in the home'was in fact in the constitution which it was not.

No there wasn't.

Yes, you're right they never actually said that. However they repeatedly referred to it as the woman in the home clause and when challenged on it several stated that that was de facto what it meant.

DublinFemale · 09/03/2024 18:23

Radyward · 09/03/2024 18:16

In the irish constitution, albeit written in the 1930's the word woman is mentioned once. The word man is mentioned 119 times.
The erasing of the word woman and a new hazy rewriting of the family / "people in durable relationships' - not one person in Govt could actually explain
There was widespread mis information from the govt and media that the actual sentence 'a womans place is in the home'was in fact in the constitution which it was not. This was totally shown to be a lazy assed lie by an eminent barrister and public figure who absolutely campaigned tirelessly.
The attorney general voiced serious concerns regarding the new wording which was leaked to the electorate -That the wording and its interpretation would be up to the courts.
That the disabled and carers would be disadvantaged by this new rewriting of the constitution also.
Our crazy left wing Govt was in effect trying to move away from their responsibilities to look after the disabled and put the obligation more so on the persons family.

Ultimately, any one with any clue in ireland was not voting for this unnecessary referendum that cost 23 million euro and the result is in fact a celebration of women and safeguards the obligation of the state to look after the disabled and disadvantaged . Brilliant result and an emphatic no to any change to the wording of woman rather than something like adult birthing person / something of that ilk that our stupid govt comes up with. Add in our second in command in govt scraping the barrell casting personal attacks on a barrister on live TV when she picked holes in the Govts arguement. How embarrassing ! ultimately no one trusts this govt. Hate speech bill coming down the tracks too. The public are angry at the govt ineptitude too. Good on the irish silent majority that showed their clout Today !

The government was going further in not recognising many people with disabilities want to have independent lives as much as possible.

The sheer ableism arrogance shown by the government with the wording was shocking.

Also not to mention many people with disabilities have caring responsibilities, some are parents of young children or take care of elderly relatives.

This was simply not progressive, only right it should be defeated

Radyward · 09/03/2024 18:25

@danielgault
Fg and FF are supposedly right wing but are ok with calling anyone who disagrees with current immigration policy right wing / far right.so thats where that came from/ what i meant. M Martin is so pious he infuriates me and then shows he who really is by casting personal attacks on maria Steen . Did ye see people were putting in holy medals into some of the boxes.ah god, but but its the young who voted No it couldnt be the older population . They who are the grass roots of FF / FG

Jesusmaryjosephandtheweedon · 09/03/2024 18:25

ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees · 09/03/2024 16:53

You are missing a lot.

The majority of people don't like the existing wording but we aren't fools who would just accept a change for the sake of it.

There are many problems with the proposal but at it's simpliest

The use of the words "strive to support" is subjective, what exactly does it mean - we'll try but can't commit to? and it was unclear how that would be interpretation in the courts
The advice of the Attorney General wasn't shared with the general public and was only leaked last week - it calls out the problematic nature of the clause
It also ignores carers or other people in caring situations
It gives no new legal rights to anyone but it may potentially dilute them

Trust us, we are fine over here and know what we are doing. We also thought Brexit was stupid but we didn't tell you how to vote.

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What @ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees said. Believe it or not Ireland is quite progressive and no we don't want to be chained barefoot and pregnant to the kitchen sink.

The language in the constitution is over 80 years old, yes some of it does need to be revised and updated to reflect today's society and in another 80 years time will need to reflect the changes that have happened in society at that stage. However change for the sake of change is not acceptable. Lack of definitive information on what constitutes a durable relationship for one. It was unclear exactly what they wanted to change it to and the no votes reflect that

TheKeatingFive · 09/03/2024 18:27

I'm sure most people in Ireland would agree that the language needs updating.

But the proposed changes were extremely poorly thought through and did not reflect explicit recommendations made by citizens assemblies. Plus the government behaved appallingly in keeping the guidance from the AG secret (until it was leaked at the 11th hour).

The No vote knew exactly what it was doing. The electorate are a lot more responsible than the government if you ask me.

DanielGault · 09/03/2024 18:31

Radyward · 09/03/2024 18:25

@danielgault
Fg and FF are supposedly right wing but are ok with calling anyone who disagrees with current immigration policy right wing / far right.so thats where that came from/ what i meant. M Martin is so pious he infuriates me and then shows he who really is by casting personal attacks on maria Steen . Did ye see people were putting in holy medals into some of the boxes.ah god, but but its the young who voted No it couldnt be the older population . They who are the grass roots of FF / FG

Maria Steen is not above personal attacks herself so I don't care there really. I can't believe she's resurfaced. Between her and and Ronán Mullen it feels like Repeal 2.0 all of a sudden, and I don't want to go through that again. If you want to hitch your wagon to those people, go ahead, but I won't be convinced. I won't forget Repeal.

DanielGault · 09/03/2024 18:32

Here's Leo!!!!

kikilaw · 09/03/2024 18:37

Don't be offended for everyone. I am a lawyer, english but second gen irish with a successful career. I have 5 children and work (more than) full time. This sort of wording is actually progressive and protecting women who want to have families even when economically that might otherwise be difficult. It doesn't say women should stay in the home tied to the range. It doesn't say women can't have a career but it is prioritising the importance of families in society even when the economics might otherwise be difficult. Plenty of ireland is still v rural which affects the nature of the jobs avaliable too. Historically ireland has had low divorce rates and comparatively low birth rate outside of marriage. I realise that us changing, but it is relevant that the family unit is encouraged.

All my female members of my age still in ireland are working by the way. And as a coubtry i think its less misogynistic than the uk.

DanielGault · 09/03/2024 18:38

kikilaw · 09/03/2024 18:37

Don't be offended for everyone. I am a lawyer, english but second gen irish with a successful career. I have 5 children and work (more than) full time. This sort of wording is actually progressive and protecting women who want to have families even when economically that might otherwise be difficult. It doesn't say women should stay in the home tied to the range. It doesn't say women can't have a career but it is prioritising the importance of families in society even when the economics might otherwise be difficult. Plenty of ireland is still v rural which affects the nature of the jobs avaliable too. Historically ireland has had low divorce rates and comparatively low birth rate outside of marriage. I realise that us changing, but it is relevant that the family unit is encouraged.

All my female members of my age still in ireland are working by the way. And as a coubtry i think its less misogynistic than the uk.

Thanks for your very generous explanation 🤔

MrsTerryPratchett · 09/03/2024 18:39

It's a 'two evils' question. On one hand you have sexism enshrined in law. On the other you have women's unpaid labour not recognised or valued.

Pick your poison.

DanielGault · 09/03/2024 18:40

kikilaw · 09/03/2024 18:37

Don't be offended for everyone. I am a lawyer, english but second gen irish with a successful career. I have 5 children and work (more than) full time. This sort of wording is actually progressive and protecting women who want to have families even when economically that might otherwise be difficult. It doesn't say women should stay in the home tied to the range. It doesn't say women can't have a career but it is prioritising the importance of families in society even when the economics might otherwise be difficult. Plenty of ireland is still v rural which affects the nature of the jobs avaliable too. Historically ireland has had low divorce rates and comparatively low birth rate outside of marriage. I realise that us changing, but it is relevant that the family unit is encouraged.

All my female members of my age still in ireland are working by the way. And as a coubtry i think its less misogynistic than the uk.

Christ, this is like satire it's that patronising! Are you well?

kikilaw · 09/03/2024 18:41

kikilaw · 09/03/2024 18:37

Don't be offended for everyone. I am a lawyer, english but second gen irish with a successful career. I have 5 children and work (more than) full time. This sort of wording is actually progressive and protecting women who want to have families even when economically that might otherwise be difficult. It doesn't say women should stay in the home tied to the range. It doesn't say women can't have a career but it is prioritising the importance of families in society even when the economics might otherwise be difficult. Plenty of ireland is still v rural which affects the nature of the jobs avaliable too. Historically ireland has had low divorce rates and comparatively low birth rate outside of marriage. I realise that us changing, but it is relevant that the family unit is encouraged.

All my female members of my age still in ireland are working by the way. And as a coubtry i think its less misogynistic than the uk.

Its not been passed because its drafted badly but not because it wants to support the economics of the family.

DanielGault · 09/03/2024 18:41

MrsTerryPratchett · 09/03/2024 18:39

It's a 'two evils' question. On one hand you have sexism enshrined in law. On the other you have women's unpaid labour not recognised or valued.

Pick your poison.

Now that should have been put on the ballot. Imagine the queues...

Doteycat · 09/03/2024 18:45

kikilaw · 09/03/2024 18:37

Don't be offended for everyone. I am a lawyer, english but second gen irish with a successful career. I have 5 children and work (more than) full time. This sort of wording is actually progressive and protecting women who want to have families even when economically that might otherwise be difficult. It doesn't say women should stay in the home tied to the range. It doesn't say women can't have a career but it is prioritising the importance of families in society even when the economics might otherwise be difficult. Plenty of ireland is still v rural which affects the nature of the jobs avaliable too. Historically ireland has had low divorce rates and comparatively low birth rate outside of marriage. I realise that us changing, but it is relevant that the family unit is encouraged.

All my female members of my age still in ireland are working by the way. And as a coubtry i think its less misogynistic than the uk.

🙄

ChanelNo19EDT · 09/03/2024 18:45

I voted no and no.

It's not stuck in the dark ages to acknowledge that it's women who have kids, women who end up caring, women who end up with shit pensions, men who ditch their kids.

In a world where some women have a penis, we need female biology and our caring roles to be acknowledged.

MrsTerryPratchett · 09/03/2024 18:50

Maybe I'll offer my comms expertise in future @DanielGault

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 09/03/2024 18:51

OchonAgusOchonOh · 09/03/2024 18:23

Yes, you're right they never actually said that. However they repeatedly referred to it as the woman in the home clause and when challenged on it several stated that that was de facto what it meant.

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Yes, Orla O'Connor from the National Women's Council said pretty much that when speaking on RTÉ earlier - I was shouting at the tv 'that's not what it says!'...

DanielGault · 09/03/2024 18:52

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 09/03/2024 18:51

Yes, Orla O'Connor from the National Women's Council said pretty much that when speaking on RTÉ earlier - I was shouting at the tv 'that's not what it says!'...

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Are you a lawyer though 😂

SidekickSylvia · 09/03/2024 18:53

OchonAgusOchonOh · 09/03/2024 17:11

Exactly. I voted No, No. I would have voted Yes, Yes if it was a simple deletion of the women in the home wording and if the wording was something like "legally recognised" or "legally sanctioned" rather than durable relationship. Even something like "durable relationship as defined by legislation" would have given me a chance to vote yes.

The Irish electorate tends to be quite politically savvy. We tend to spend time considering the implications of our vote. If you can't predict the outcome of a vote for change, it is sensible to vote for the status quo until you get presented with a clearer choice.

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The Irish electorate tends to be quite politically savvy.

I agree with this whole post, but particularly this line. There is no way this was a knee-jerk reaction, or a protest vote against Varadkar etc. This will have been well considered and thought through by voters.

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 09/03/2024 18:54

@Rosiiee I agree, many of my circle are in the legal profession and the general consensus was no for the many reasons stated here.

EarringsandLipstick · 09/03/2024 18:56

ChanelNo19EDT · 09/03/2024 18:45

I voted no and no.

It's not stuck in the dark ages to acknowledge that it's women who have kids, women who end up caring, women who end up with shit pensions, men who ditch their kids.

In a world where some women have a penis, we need female biology and our caring roles to be acknowledged.

Yes 👏

DanielGault · 09/03/2024 19:00

SidekickSylvia · 09/03/2024 18:53

The Irish electorate tends to be quite politically savvy.

I agree with this whole post, but particularly this line. There is no way this was a knee-jerk reaction, or a protest vote against Varadkar etc. This will have been well considered and thought through by voters.

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My 6th class daughter had a debate about this in school, with homework to go home and discuss with us. There are three of us in the house, and we sat and discussed for quite a while. It was quite thought provoking tbh

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 09/03/2024 19:00

I'm annoyed that many schools were closed to facilitate voting and all around the country parents had to take a day leave because they had no childcare, lets face it the majority were women. Many had grand mothers step in. I thought this was a bit ironic!! If we really care about women families and carers we'd be organising polling stations elsewhere.

I think there were two classes of no voters, the more well read who truly understand the constitution and those that are so sick of the government failures re housing etc that just wanted to say F you.

Original poster

Yetmorebeanstocount · 09/03/2024 19:01

Whatnonsenseisthisnow · 09/03/2024 17:14

YABVVVU

You do NOT understand what was at stake.
There was a lot more nuance that you've bothered to realise.

For one thing a vote to change this language was also a vote AGAINST supporting disabled people and their carers.

Would you vote yes to that @Yetmorebeanstocount?

I know I don't know - that is why I though I was missing something.

OP posts:

enchantedsquirrelwood · 09/03/2024 19:03

Unlike the British who voted for brexit despite not knowing what that actually meant, Irish people tend not to vote for constitutional changes that are not clear in advance of voting

Ha ha.

But how do you know the OP is British, or even lives in the UK (or GB)? After all, we're constantly being told not to assume that on MN, despite it being a UK website.

I wasn't surprised to see the (Irish) result because I'd seen the other thread and seen that it was confusing, controversial and badly drafted. Actually I wasn't surprised by the Brexit result either.