Joiner charging £15 for invoice

[clothearedpotatohead]

Had someone come out a couple of weeks ago to do a small job.

Quoted £55. Came and did it, all good.

Asked after if he needs my email for the invoice. Crickets.

2 weeks later he’s come back and said it’s £55 cash or £70 with an invoice. “Let me know which works best for you”

I think it’s bullshit. He obviously doesn’t want to declare his income (again, bullshit – pay your taxes) and if he wanted to charge £15 for an invoice he should have said so in advance.

Wow, what an absolute horror he is. Thanks for the update.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, though: all the people saying "Oh, he's just a low-paid tradie trying to save himself a few quid here and there" - it's the thin end of the wedge deciding to defraud your taxes.

And whilst a lot of them no doubt 'just' stop at that, if you are a person who will merrily and flagrantly ignore the law and how society functions in one aspect, why would you not go on and do so in any other respects where it works out beneficial for you? If paying taxes is 'not for you', why would 'not threatening people with violence' necessarily be any different?

The funny thing is that just before this he wrote something along the lines of believing me to be at fault for not asking his preferred payment method in advance.

The ‘at fault’ got me – which system is he working to?! 🤦🏻😆

He also complained I had not asked the person who put me in touch with him (another tradesperson) about payment method, despite the fact they’re separate businesses, and he and I spoke directly on the phone to arrange the job, and I mean – who is the other guy? His Dad?

Anyway, hopefully that is the last of him!

What on earth did he do for £55. Fit a door hinge.
The issue is he's obviously had, is customers asking for a discount for cash.
Now he's made the mistake of assuming offering that to all customers and in your case threatening to remove whatever work he has done.
All rather unsavoury.

What on earth did he do for £55. Fit a door hinge.

Something along those lines – v small job. Took well under an hour.

Find it interesting as well the few posts upthread talking about there being not enough money in trades, no one wanting to pay a fair amount, how can someone make ends meet and pay tax if they’re only charging £55 (or whatever) an hour.

But there are so many self-employed occupations where many people charge way less per hour – psychotherapists (start at £45), PTs (starting at £30, which in my opinion is too low), massage therapists, translators, graphic designers, physiotherapists, driving instructors (most where I am charge around £34, which also covers petrol and vehicle maintenance costs).

£55 for less than an hour’s work (and that’s a service charge, not a wage – it takes into account unpaid hours and the costs of running a business) is decent.

I should also make really clear here that I’ve happily paid more than £55 for other similar small jobs when it’s been agreed at the outset, and recently opted for someone charging £400 more for a 2-day job than a competitor because they were more professional – so is not a case of wanting to pay anyone less.

Just don’t understand the disproportionate concern for tradespeople and the misapprehension that they can’t catch a break.

He sounds batshit - I was all on his side about the hassle of invoices for small jobs & taxes are pretty much reliant on the honor system when it comes to being self employed but making it difficult to get paid & threatening to come back ?

I'd report him just for being a nuisance

If that was the case he would have to follow the legally defined) process for being able to charge interest (which is different depending on whether your client is a domestic or business customer). This process involved first having issued an invoice with payment terms on it.

I wasn't saying tradesman can't catch a break, most decent ones I know have a 6 month to 1 year waiting list. I was saying most no longer entertain these crappy little jobs, because most people would rather pay the cheap dodgy bloke, like you have done. It's not worth the hassle of competing for less than £100.

I'm not sticking up for this guy but obviously £55 isn't his hourly rate. That's the overall cost. You said he quoted the job so presumably came out to you twice, plus the cost of any materials.

Depends whether he did a good job and was good value for money or not and I wanted to use him in the future.

Getting decent trades in these days is hard work, so I wouldn't mess around with that sort of money.

Dp runs a business related to a trade his charges are £120 hr plus vat-daily rate is £550 plus vat. Plus mark up on all materials.
Payment terms are on the digital quote/estimate-invoice. Smaller call outs are immediate payment-invoices are issued digitally in front of the customer. Payment is taken via a card machine.
Although his business turnover £500,000 a year.

What people fail to comprehend is the costs of running a business.
Most employed trades are on anywhere from £15 per hr upwards with brand new vehicle- fully fueled and all power tools supplied.
All administration is done by the business, re admin and finance depts.
So taking that into consideration £55 per hr is very low for a business sector that has very high fixed and variable costs.
Dp does wish that trades weren't an option for the non-academics and that the courses for technical trades were uprated to minimum diploma with a business module included.
This would cut out the rogues and raise the profile and image of trades.

I usually just pay by bank transfer, most small trades are well below the VAT threshold. My window washer, he comes by and I transfer £30 when he’s done the windows. I dont see the point of a formal invoice for £55 job? You can’t avoid income tax if the money is going by bank transfer, HMRC can look into all our bank accounts,

Hmmm, I'm guessing he isn't one of those tradespeople who expects to get endless repeat business and numerous recommendations from delighted customers...

Quite possibly, but it's clearly his choice to run his business that way.

All he has to do when giving a quote and/or if asked about payment methods or terms, all he has to say is "I would do the job as agreed for £X and I ask for payment on completion. I accept either cash or bank transfer, whichever is easier for you; it makes no difference to me, everything goes through the books."

That's a very clear, straightforward way of telling people that he's honest and that there will be no 'discounts for cash' - and then any dishonest customers can know in advance and accept or decline it, according to their circumstances and morals.

Look op I can see you're in the right morally, expecting him to pay his taxes.

But practically, you must see that the easiest way to make this all go away was to hand over the £55 cash at your earliest convenience. You knew he was shady, yet you got involved in a back and forth with him, which resulted in him threatening you. He knows where you live.

You should have just paid the £55 cash and avoided this problem. You aren't HMRC or the morality police, and by trying to be, you put yourself at risk.

No, he quoted over the phone while he was driving somewhere else, was finished in way under an hour, and there were no materials as it was just putting something back up that was already here. He may have used some of his own screws at most.

So it was £55 for less than an hour’s work

I know you didn’t say trades can’t catch a break, but there has been a bit of that on the thread (not the majority mind) and exclamations of sympathy that he’s working for as little as £55

(and that’s for prob 30 mins work max – yes he drove here, but my PT also drives all over to different clients – and charges £35 ph – and doesn’t whinge that it’s not worth her while, so do hairdressers, driving instructors, etc. and no one seems much worried about them either).

He also chose to do the job and set the price himself, I guess at what he felt was worth it to him

I‘m self-employed and likewise have a minimum rate for small jobs, which is usually set at my hourly rate, which is less than £55 but as a sole trader with many unpaid hours to cover still perfectly adequate

Well it should be £55 ex vat or £66 inc vat.

It’s also an excellent way for someone to skirt paying child maintenance

i am happy to pay at the end of a job. Most tradespeople I hire automatically hand me an invoice upon completion without even having to ask. Half the time they aren’t even hand written as they carry portable printers.

But surely, if you do it the legitimate way and follow proper procedure - like your DP does - you can set the market prices that leave you with enough profit/living after all of your costs. £1/2m turnover certainly sounds like he and his colleagues are doing something right.

OP wasn't complaining about the cost; just his methods and (apparent) sharp practice.

I heartily disagree that people who aren't academic should be excluded from trades, as it's a great legitimate way for somebody with weaker scholastic strengths to earn an honest living, if they're otherwise skilled/able to learn in that way.

I've had a lot of invoices from tradespeople over the years that have had poor SPAG on them, but you could always tell what they meant. Personally, I wouldn't have made those SPAG mistakes; BUT I wouldn't have had the first clue how to do any of the skilled work that they were for. I'd much prefer to have Barry the skilled plumber who failed his GCSE English, rather than Oscar Wilde the rubbish plumber who does a massive botch job but gives me an invoice written in perfect, beautiful prose.

But OP wasn't there when he did the work, so she couldn't have handed over the cash - any more than you can pay for an Amazon order in cash.

Yes, she could have left it there for him, but without her knowing him and knowing that he was trustworthy, he could have just taken the money and legged it or deliberately done a half-arsed job, knowing he'd got the money so there could be no come-back.

Also, it's true that OP is not the morality police, but it's not like she's an uninvolved passer-by. The only reason that this scheme continues so widely is because customers say "well, it's not my business if he pays his taxes or not", when they know full-well that he isn't.

Plus, as has been said a few times, he isn't just robbing the taxman, but potentially also his own children if he pays child maintenance based on a small percentage of his actual earnings. HMRC have procedures to protect their income, if people are trying to short-change them, but children are powerless.

You haven’t read what happened – I wasn’t at the property when the work was done, which he knew I wouldn’t be beforehand, I asked for his payment details immediately on completion, he didn’t reply for 2 weeks then popped back up and said he wanted cash

First I think this is a load of crap

But also I‘m elsewhere right now, in a different city – he said he would charge to come and collect the cash (an hour’s drive away or 2 hours on public transport, I don’t drive), which I didn’t really feel was fair, then he lost his temper and threatened me in writing.

He‘s been paid now anyway via his contact (who doesn’t sound keen on recommending him again) and I think this idea that tradespeople are to be feared as they might come and ‘get you’ is a weird idea to normalise (and it is normalised to some extent).

I think him threatening to break in to the property is fully on him, I wasn’t trying to piss him off, and I don’t think his response is in anyway warranted or justified, and I don’t think I’ve ‘brought it on myself’

If I, a female desk-based worker, threatened to break into people’s homes because they couldn’t or didn’t want to drop off payment in cash, I’d be correctly identified as completely unhinged

Yep, the extra was completely arbitrary, I think he just preferred I paid in cash and was hoping it’d put me off. I really doubt he’s registered for VAT

Plus, he's also defrauding HMRC even if he is registered for and legitimately charging VAT and declaring it, as he's still tucking an extra £4 away for his trouble!

He's unlikely to be registered.

I'm in London. Have been charged less than £55 for two small jobs done by a electrician and a plumber in the last year. On the other hand I needed a different electrical job done as an emergency and was charged more for nearly an hours work. (All jobs were done in the day.) Due to the type of businesses this second electrician works for he is VAT registered.

Honestly what planet are you on OP

Just pay the cash it's less

This happens all time only most people aren't awkward like you

He’s already been paid 🤦🏻

I couldn’t pay cash in any case as by the time he reappeared – after ignoring my message asking how we would sort payment for 2 weeks – I was in a completely different city

Oh well it's out of your hands

Next time though if you're uneasy then get them to email you their quote and you can see from that if they're registered etc etc