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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think the government are on a hiding to nothing with their drive to get people back to work?

503 replies

molokoco · 08/03/2024 10:33

On the Today Programme in Radio 4 this morning they had a segment where they were talking about "worklessness" in the UK and the number of unfilled vacancies and how the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

They had a man on in his early 60's who was made redundant from what sounded like a highly paid business / finance type career in the city 4 years ago, he had initially applied for 100's of jobs over the next few years and was rejected he seemed to suspect due to his age. He work as a postman for a spell before he finally mentally came round to the idea of retirement. Obviously this man had the funds but so do a lot of the people retiring in their 50's either have that or their health is so poor they can no longer work while they wait endlessly for hospital appointments and treatment.

When I try to look at the kind of jobs that have the most vacancies in the UK the information I am seeing is things like hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agriculture workers and so on. It doesn't seem likely to me that someone who was previously in a high flying career but now feels pushed out due to ageism or someone with health issues is likely to want to take a job in any of those areas which likely involve some mix of heavy work, anti-social hours, low pay and a degree of precarity and perhaps not much in the way of long term prospects.

The man on the radio had applied for 100's of jobs within his field of experience and he would have kept working if he had landed one but it seems like well paid, jobs with good career prospects are still over subscribed with lots of people applying for that kind of work so employers will have their pick and ageism in recruitment is a known issue.

They had a Doctor on to discuss the mental health crisis in the young but he wasn't very coherent, he did mention about improving nutrition, exercise and prescribing gardening to people with mental health issues and suggested that when people go on the sick with poor mental health and spend a few weeks at home watching daytime TV then they will feel worse. I am sure he had a point but gardening isn't a substitute to getting proper mental heath treatment, it is part of that sure but I think young people need more than that and that the things that seem to be behind the rise in depression, anxiety and hopelessness need to be addressed more widely. I also think that while younger people in good health may be more able to do the kind of work in hospitality or construction where the vacancies actually are the problems with these jobs still remain that they are often hard, heavy jobs, they can be low paid, antisocial hours and with fewer prospects in the long term.

It is sad to see people, especially young people drop out of the workforce right at the time their lives should be starting or for older people to feel pushed out due to their age or poor health but a few tax breaks isn't going to make an ex-executive or ex-teacher suddenly want to take a job on a building site or as a chambre maid and a few gardening sessions isn't going to make up for the utter lack of mental health care and magically cure young people of their anxiety or despair in a world where a home and a family seem so far out of reach.

OP posts:
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Spendonsend · 08/03/2024 12:41

I dont think they will get very far getting older people back into the workforce at all. Especially if they have funds and can downsize etc

I dont know about younger people with mental health issues. But you woukd think mental health care would be the start point?

Its one thing saying people should work, but quite another having employers that will take them on.

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 08/03/2024 12:46

They have to make career changing more accessible and affordable, and to provide better careers advice at all stages but especially to people no longer in education.

As an example my DH qualified in a field that was quite fashionable and popular at the time and got work out of uni. Unfortunately it is a career that was hard hit by digitalisation and now even more so by AI. He was made redundant and couldn't get back into work in the same field, those roles that were available were going to brand new graduates who were cheaper and had recent training on the latest software.

He would have loved to have retrained into a new suitable career. There was little advice on what jobs were in demand, what his skill set would suit, what qualifications he would need or how to get them. He looked into trades but found many of the courses were only funded for school leavers and expensive to self fund.

I have seen similar with people who want to get out of physically hard work that they are struggling to keep up, people in shrinking industries, or people burnt out from high pressure careers and seeking a change.

MereDintofPandiculation · 08/03/2024 12:47

If I was looking a quick fix mine would be to go back to an old proposal by the Labour Party the there should be a ratio for companies over a certain threshold, where the ratio between the top earners and lower earners can’t be too big. So the better the company does, the better all employees do, but you still have a financial incentive for the higher skilled roles. All you need to do is set up a subsidiary company with a puppet CEO for all the lower paid roles. So your salary is safe because you’ve got rid of all the employees who would take you over the salary ratio threshold.

when I started work, the average “big boss” was being paid 25 times the average worker, now I think it’s 325 times. You’ll never secure equality of opportunity, connections, “social capital” counts for too much. But it wouldn’t be quite so important in a less unequal society.

Echobelly · 08/03/2024 12:47

Totally agree OP. Also I think something that might really help young people's mental health was if jobs paid enough for them to live independently and do more than just survive. I'm not surprised many are depressed - they've been told to work hard and they'll get jobs that will at least pay enough to begin life as an independent adult with a place to live and a social life.

And fairly basic jobs used to just about cover that - nothing lavish, but you could live your life on it. Now you can't even do that. Kids aren't asking for megabucks, they just want to live somewhere safe and pleasant and be able to have a social life but 'return to shareholders' has become more important than paying a living wage.

We relied on labour from Eastern Europe from young people who were prepared to sleep on sofas and travel a long way to work to fill all the care and hospitality jobs that are going now so guess what, because of Brexit we can't fill them!

The economy is heading for a massive shock as suddenly the old model of 'People get wealthier, buy homes, retire comfortably' completely collapses because we are ruled by people who are so privilged they have a spare million in the bank to buy their kids their first homes. They think people like me (quite well off) will be able to bankroll our kids for the sort of prosperity they assume is normal, but we can't anymore and it's only going to get worse and is already worse for the majority of people who are less wealthy than me.

FlabMonsterIsDietingAgain · 08/03/2024 12:50

Octavia64 · 08/03/2024 12:34

I'm sort of in this category.

Left teaching year ago due to burnout and bad working conditions.

I'm 47.

But I use a wheelchair and get fatigued daily so I can't do a full time job. (Teaching was part time).

I have applied for quite a few jobs but as I state upfront I am disabled most don't want to know.

Businesses want cheap able bodied full time workers. They aren't interested in anything else.

I work in the eAssessments sector, have you looked in to roles writing/marking test content?

Generally home based or fully remote roles, flexible and part time is common.

Jobs like these

pearson.jobs/virtual-gbr/assessment-leader/49C72A4F804C471392872E7E7EB633BC/job/

pearson.jobs/virtual-usa/math-content-developer-9-month-limited-term/2255C247A4C14658A1231A42F05F855C/job/

www.trinitycollege.com/about-us/work-with-trinity/careers/other-opportunities

careers.cambridge.org/jobs/vacancy/assessment-manager-languages--cambridge/4446/description/

TooraLoora · 08/03/2024 12:55

I cut back on working hours last year. I'm 57 and had always worked full time in roles that were supposed to be 35 hrs per week but were really nearer 45.
I have health and mobility issues and a teen with Autism, ADHD, PTSD and anxiety who hasn't been to school for 2 years. I'm also a single parent. I couldn't afford to cut my hours but just had to as I got to the stage of not being able to cope with everything else on top of a full on full time job.
I now work 3 days per week and will def be working to 67. But never full time again.

molokoco · 08/03/2024 12:58

BIossomtoes · 08/03/2024 11:27

I am in my 40's and work part time at something I love and I probably would be considered economically under active but like you I value my quality of life more than earning more.

So you’re part of the problem. Presumably those people who have retired in their early 50s also “value their quality of life more than earning more”.

I am not for a minute saying people in their 50's who are stepping back from work are wrong, I totally understand them and their position. I would have thought that seemed perfectly clear in my OP. My issue is that the sticking plaster plans the government have to get people like me back into full time employment just aren't going to cut it. Same for their ideas on how to get unemployed young people (NEETs) back into work.

OP posts:
molokoco · 08/03/2024 13:00

@Echobelly Totally agree with everything you've said there!

OP posts:
RafaistheKingofClay · 08/03/2024 13:00

Broodywuz · 08/03/2024 12:39

I don't know anyone with long covid, the long covid issue I see is people got too used to being paid to sit at home and now don't want to work.

You may be rare. Or perhaps people don’t feel like sharing.

You have a 10% chance of developing long covid with every infection. The U.K. government are keeping their head in the sand about the warnings that it is a mass disabling event and reports that show it is damaging the economy. It’s a problem that’s only get worse as people get more and more repeat infections.

Octavia64 · 08/03/2024 13:05

@FlabMonsterIsDietingAgain

Thank you those links look useful

DiscoBeat · 08/03/2024 13:13

the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

How are they planning to 'push' the over 50s back to work if they choose not to? I fall into that category and I'm quite happy in my early retirement!

EcstaticMarmalade · 08/03/2024 13:15

I’ve been economically inactive for over a dozen years now. It started with the onset of a chronic illness. During that time I have also found out that I am ND (so disabled) and that not recognising that before contributed to the onset of the chronic illness.

But I have some savings and a supportive partner so I was able to take time off to get a handle on things. I don’t need to work financially. This is a huge change from when I was younger- I grew up in a single parent household where we struggled and I started working p/t at 14 to help make ends meet at home. I know what it is like to be desperate and need to take whatever you can get.

I’d say for most of the last eight or nine years I would have been happy to work if I could find something suitable.

But:

  1. Roles in my former field now usually pay the same or less than those same roles over a decade ago
  2. Employers who advertise p/t roles in that field usually want a full time work load to be completed in p/t hours. I have usually discovered this by speaking to former or current post holders in the “find out more about the role talking stage”.
  3. Getting adequate accommodation for disability/illness is an uphill battle
  4. It’s very difficult to switch fields as employers aren’t that interested in helping people transition.
  5. Employers attitudes towards employees have really worsened.

If I needed to work financially I would find a way of getting round those obstacles as best I could. But I don’t need to.

So over the years I have have done various volunteer roles at times when I felt I wanted to, at other times I have focussed on other things like my health, house renovations etc.

If employers are struggling to hire people they should look at things like how much they pay, how well they treat their staff, how rewarding and secure they make work.

So many of them are happy to rely on people being desperate for work and just accepting what pay, terms and conditions they can get away with. They don’t know how to treat people well.

And the government would be better off focussing on that side of the equation than encouraging people into work.

Hereyoume · 08/03/2024 13:20

You can "force" someone to get a job through sanctions and lack of benefits, but you can't force someone to hire a lazy, entitled, benefit scrounger.

Nobody is going to risk their reputation or business giving a job to someone who doesn't want it.

CoffeeWithCheese · 08/03/2024 13:23

I'm looking at requesting to drop my working hours as soon as I can do now. Was talking to the admins today and they commented how our work area "burns" people in my role out and seems to churn through them at a rate of about 1 per year. I'm unusual - I love the job and I've stuck it out beyond that, but in order to maintain my mental health I'm looking to see if I can drop hours slightly.

The mentality of using people as disposable resources and not dealing with what is behind staff turnover and burnout needs looking at.

taxguru · 08/03/2024 13:26

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon

They have to make career changing more accessible and affordable, and to provide better careers advice at all stages but especially to people no longer in education.

They also need to bring adult education back to the levels it was in the 80s and 90s. We had three local adult education colleges offering all kinds of classes either during daytime or evening, whether for "fun" or for formal qualifications.

I used to teach accounting (AAT) at one of them doing evening classes and we had a full age range from 18 year olds right through to 50/60 and some OAPs. Most wanted to retrain as accountants/book-keepers, some just wanted to do it for interest/social. All that's gone, that same college is now 16-18 year olds only and don't do any evening classes at all - it's ALL about apprenticeships.

One of the other colleges closed down around 2005 if I remember correctly.

Every year, we got a huge booklet through the door of all the adult education courses, not only at those three colleges, but also some in church halls, some in libraries, etc., prepared and distributed by the local council.

I recently looked to see how my son could take an additional A level (he's left Uni and wanted a specific A level for a particular reason). Completely impossible - no local options at all. There are a few online courses, but as it's a science A level requiring Lab work, he'd have to travel a huge distance both for the lab practicals and also to the nearest exam centre, not to mention the huge cost of the online course and exam entry fees.

We had a world leading adult education system and around 20-30 years ago it was all thrown away!

Vettrianofan · 08/03/2024 13:26

Sweetshallulie · 08/03/2024 12:39

I have CFS and I could maybe manage 12hrs or so a week. I would struggle to do anything too physical and I have no useful qualifications. My options are limited. I could possibly sit at a check out but supermarkets have got rid of most of the manned ones and replaced them with self checkouts.

I get frequent migraines, so I'm completely unreliable as an employee, but I don't meet the criteria for disability benefits either. So many of the jobs that I could have done in the past have been automated.

There is only one person sat behind the counter of my local bank, it's pretty amazing we actually have a local bank as most have been closed, I remember when I was little there were at least five bank tellers. I could work from home but you need qualifications and experience for a lot of those jobs. Some people just aren't academic or physically fit and the jobs that could have been done in the past simply don't exist anymore. As usual the working class are made out to be feckless and lazy.

Same here. I don't qualify for disability benefits despite suffering fatigue daily. Apparently my painkillers help me get through each day so there is no need for any extra support. Just have to get by best I can. Limited to what jobs I will be able to do in the future once the DC are grown a bit.

WhatNoRaisins · 08/03/2024 13:28

I'm generalising a bit as I'm sure there are retirees that are still physically fit and up for something new but the sectors suffering staff shortages never strike me as the sort of jobs an older retired person would be likely to go for.

Dahlia444 · 08/03/2024 13:28

RafaistheKingofClay · 08/03/2024 13:00

You may be rare. Or perhaps people don’t feel like sharing.

You have a 10% chance of developing long covid with every infection. The U.K. government are keeping their head in the sand about the warnings that it is a mass disabling event and reports that show it is damaging the economy. It’s a problem that’s only get worse as people get more and more repeat infections.

That's interesting. I have long covid from my second infection which was last summer and now over 6 months later am just managing my part time hours. I know a couple of others who are much worse than me. So a small group that I know but affecting productivity yes.

Octavia64 · 08/03/2024 13:29

To the pp talking about Benefit scroungers

The vast majority of over 50s who are economically inactive are not on benefits.

So they may well be lazy and entitled. But they are not benefits scroungers.

(They are mostly living on private pensions taken early)

underthebun · 08/03/2024 13:34

@Octavia64 do you have evidence that most of the silver exodus are living off private pensions?

SailingStormyWaters · 08/03/2024 13:36

Maybe the 18-24 yrs old look at how we live our lives and think No thanks.
Life is not meant to be all work, work,work.
Good on the over 50s retiring early, who wants to work full time until 67?

Octavia64 · 08/03/2024 13:40

Paragraph 166 of this House of Commons report.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmbeis/306/report.html#heading-4

taxguru · 08/03/2024 13:41

SailingStormyWaters · 08/03/2024 13:36

Maybe the 18-24 yrs old look at how we live our lives and think No thanks.
Life is not meant to be all work, work,work.
Good on the over 50s retiring early, who wants to work full time until 67?

Fair enough, but where is the money coming from to finance an idle lifestyle?

If you don't want to work, then don't expect other people to work and pay ever increasing taxes to fund your lazy lifestyle.

MyLovelyPurse · 08/03/2024 13:41

@pointythings how/why are 'most' over 50s dealing with health issues!? How weird. I am in my 60s and I don't know one single person my age with health issues. You have a strange idea of what being 50/60 means. In my exercise class there are women between 20 and 94. The 50/60 year olds are often fitter than those in their 20s as they take care of themselves. I am certainly fitter than I was 30 years ago.

However, hardly anybody I know in my age bracket works full time any more. But that is nothing to do with ill health. During the pandemic I reduced my working hours because I work in the public sector and the workload and stress was absurd. I don't mean that I couldn't cope because of my age, there were plenty of younger colleagues burning out too, but if you have just taken on a mortgage or need money to bring up children you just have to keep going. Most people I know have stopped working full time and done things like downsizing or getting rid of cars in order to afford it. Even though we could really do with the money I would never go back to work full time. It's just not worth it. During my working lifetime from the mid 1980s until now working life has just turned to shit.